Taking ya mate for a fly think twice

[turboplanner]

You needed to pay for it from the early 1980's like the rest of us - you've just been lucky.

 

 

[dazza 38]

The only public liability insurance I have ever had was when I was self employed. Maybe we need a pole . A- I have PL insurance , B- I do not have PL insurance or C- Australia is in such s sh*t state of affairs these day, I am moving to another country .

 

 

[farri]

Never give anybody written permission to land on your strip, make it as safe as you can, the rest is up to the pilot in command.

Absolutely!!! I will not give writen permission to anyone. I can`t see how I can be held responsibe for someone, in the air, making a decission to land. I`m not even sure I have to make it safe for someone else to come in as it is private property and I`ve made the strip/strips to suit my needs and safety, only.

 

Here`s a true story to demonstrate that writen permission is advisable when intendending to land on someone elses property.

 

Steve, from Innisfail came to see me, wanting to learn to fly the Drifter. He wanted to fly from his own back yard. He asked me to fly in with the Drifter and see if the area he had to fly from was suitable. The first thing I did was to drive down and have a look. I decided that with the right wether conditions, there was enough room to be able to fly the Drifter on and off safely.

 

I`d flown over the area many times before. The area is a small housing estate and there is a house only about 50mts at the southern end boundary of what would be the strip. At that time there were trees adjacent to the eastern side but only cane paddocks surrounding the northern and western side. Before I would fly in, I told Steve he would have to go to the local council and find out what the council bylaws were because I would need writen permission from him. He did what I asked and I got writen permission. It was granted untill withdrawn.

 

I flew down, stayed at 1500` AGL, had a good look around the whole area especially around the house that was at the end of where I was going to land. Landing from the north was slightly down wind but decided to land from that end so I wouldn`t upset the neighbor in any way. I wasn`t on the ground 10 minutes when the neighbor came over. He and Steve, went where I couldn`t hear them. Nothing was said to me so I didn`t know what was going on.

 

Time passed and Steve wanted me to fly down again, so I did. I landed from the same end again but this time I wasn`t on the ground 5 minutes when the neighbor came over and again they went where I couldn`t hear. When the neighbor went I asked steve what was going on, he told me and I asked if it was ok by him if I went to talk with the neighbor,Steve said yes.

 

I went to the boundry ( there was no fence ) and the neighbor and his wife were sitting on the steps. I asked for permission to enter the property, which they gave. I asked why they were concerned and they told me there could have been some of their children on their property, in front of the aircraft and I may not have been able to stop. I made it quite clear to them that there were no children there and I didn`t see any children anywhere else in their yard, on both ocassions. I told them the flight and what I`d had done was perfectly legal but as far as they were concerned, nothing I`d said mattered to them or made any difference.

 

He was the one who came to see Steve but she was the one doing all the talking to me. If I told you all she said, it would take too long and you wouldn`t believe it. She got angrier and orded me off her property. As I started to walk away, she yelled out " I`ll see you in court. " I simply turned around and said " Give it your best shot. "

 

Not finished yet, Unfortunately.....A couple of weeks went by and I received a call from the CASA inspector in Brisbane. He told me that the lady had made a formal complaint and he wanted to know what was going on. I explained it all to him and the CASA inspector was satisfied. It was all over and I never needed to go to court.

 

I later learned that Steve and the neighbor had been fighting for a while and it started over some borrowed tools. Sadly,the result of it all was that Steve decided it wasn`t worth the trouble he would have from flying off his property and gave the idea up. I still see Steve now and then and he hasn`t withdrawn permission. I still have the original. Where would it all have ended, if I didn`t bother to ask for writen permission?

 

Frank.

 

Ps, I havn`t seen Steve for a while, I might fly in to see him this weekend.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

Dazza, If you knew about it and had it when you were self employed, then all you are doing when flying is protecting yourself from similar claims, so there's nothing new there.

 

It's probable that at some stage of setting up or applying for a contract that the need for cover was brought to your attention.

 

What I find unconscionable is that State Governments ditched a lot of their prescriptive legislation on the quiet, and just didn't tell us that under self regulation we bear the risk.

 

I had an issue with Vicroads on some transport regulations which lasted for years, and while they admitted they should have publicised these regulations (which related to self-administration risks) when they changed the legislation, they knew they were gone 100% if they were sued, and sat in a panic for nearly a decade until they finally got the government to put it in with a new Act, then sat back with bated breath hoping there would be no claims before finally publicising the regulations without referring to them as new, and with the excuse that they had been around for a decade, and XXXX Act said they were compulsory.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Franco,

 

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck.

 

If you have an airstrip, even if you have only given two or three people permission to use it there could still come a day when someone on a cross country flight, pushed down by weather could see the strip and the windsock and assume it was a working airstrip.

 

So while it is open your duty of care to ensure it is legal and safe applies.

 

To reduce the chances of a claim you would need to put out the white crosses (closure signs) when it wasn't active or safe.

 

The case, Ballerini vs Shire of Berrigan shows how, although a person dived in to the Murray River, a natural watercourse, and hit a snag the Shire of Berrigan was responsible because they had taken "ownership" of the Cobram swimming hole, with fencing and signs.

 

The attachment is just a press release, but does give the $5.6 million award against the Shire, but you can search the case on the Austlii website and get the full reasons for the decision.

 

 

 

[dazza 38]

Life's a game and in the game risks are involved. I have always flown 95 % of the time solo anyway. My understanding is that we have 3 rd party insurance as apart of our RAA membership. So the only thing I have to worry about is if a passenger got hurt. I probably only carry a passenger for 1 or 2 flights per year. I would rather not bother with PL insurance for that once or twice flight per year flight. To me it is a calculated risk. Life is full of risks.

 

 

[farri]

What you are calling a waiver, may be a warning of inherent dangers, and the signature may be the Insurance company's proof that certain dangers were pointed out.quote]Turbo, I don`t know who you are addressing but I`ve always seen it that way, hence, no waiver for me.I havn`t seen a sign on a fence saying, " Savage dog on the premises " for a hell of a long time.

 

Franco,If you have an airstrip, even if you have only given two or three people permission to use it there could still come a day when someone on a cross country flight, pushed down by weather could see the strip and the windsock and assume it was a .

Yes, I thought about that a long time ago. Another reason not to give writen permission. To my mind, verble evedince ' He said such and such' has very little, if any credability and would be pretty poor evidence, in court.

 

I fly from my own padocks. I just happen to keep the the grass mowed better in one place. I have a wind sock because I need to have a fire from time to time and I have to know where the wind is coming from...Not trying to be smart, just showing what I`m entitled to claim, however, I learnt a long time ago that judges rule within the law but they rule as they wish. Nobody is completely safe from anything.

 

Lets put the whole thing in perspective. The law is one thing but what realy happens in the end is another. Over the years there`s been several accidents that had nothing to do with me whatsoever other than I was the land owner on which they occured.

 

A guy was killed while trying to learn to fly his Gyro... A CFI from SE QLD who was up here to check me out, crashed the Wheller Scout he was test flying for someone and had we not been there to save him he would deffinately have died...A guy crashed a Condor he was trying to fly, fortunately he wasn`t injured...A guy crashed and almost destroyed the aircraft that he`d spent a couple of years building, on it`s first test flight, he later crashed it again, finally gave it away and took it to the dump. This guy should have been killed but escaped almost unharmed... A CFI taking a student for a cross country, in his Jabiru, decided to come in, got it wrong coming in to land, crashed, flipped over and destroyed the aircraft. Fortunately no bad injuries... A guy got it wrong when he had an engine failure at a point relative to the strip where I would expext most student pilots to be able to land safely. Damaged the aircraft and received injuries.. Another well known CFI lost control of his mates aircraft on the ground and did a fair bit of damage.

 

Not in one of those cases did I even have the slightest bit of a legal issue from any of them.

 

Frank.

 

[facthunter]

A wise gambler, only gambles when he/she can afford to lose. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Not sure what you mean by that Nev, but everyone makes their own decission. My saying is never gamble what you can`t afford to loose.

 

The past is the just that and the future hasn`t come and I for one arn`t going to crawl into a cave ( so to speak ) in the hope that all will be well and safe for ever and ever. I will continue to play it as I see it. Amen.

 

Frank

 

 

[facthunter]

Some say if it is going to happen it will. I don't follow the predestined thing though I had so many close ones early on that I thought it might be "someone" looking after me. Now I realise that you can't get eaten by a shark if the bathplug is in tight enough, and you make a lot of your own luck by checking things and trying to be aware of avoidable risk. Nev

 

 

[AVOCET]

Absolutely!!! I will not give writen permission to anyone. I can`t see how I can be held responsibe for someone, in the air, making a decission to land. I`m not even sure I have to make it safe for someone else to come in as it is private property and I`ve made the strip/strips to suit my needs and safety, only.Here`s a true story to demonstrate that writen permission is advisable when intendending to land on someone elses property.

 

Steve, from Innisfail came to see me, wanting to learn to fly the Drifter. He wanted to fly from his own back yard. He asked me to fly in with the Drifter and see if the area he had to fly from was suitable. The first thing I did was to drive down and have a look. I decided that with the right wether conditions, there was enough room to be able to fly the Drifter on and off safely.

 

I`d flown over the area many times before. The area is a small housing estate and there is a house only about 50mts at the southern end boundary of what would be the strip. At that time there were trees adjacent to the eastern side but only cane paddocks surrounding the northern and western side. Before I would fly in, I told Steve he would have to go to the local council and find out what the council bylaws were because I would need writen permission from him. He did what I asked and I got writen permission. It was granted untill withdrawn.

 

I flew down, stayed at 1500` AGL, had a good look around the whole area especially around the house that was at the end of where I was going to land. Landing from the north was slightly down wind but decided to land from that end so I wouldn`t upset the neighbor in any way. I wasn`t on the ground 10 minutes when the neighbor came over. He and Steve, went where I couldn`t hear them. Nothing was said to me so I didn`t know what was going on.

 

Time passed and Steve wanted me to fly down again, so I did. I landed from the same end again but this time I wasn`t on the ground 5 minutes when the neighbor came over and again they went where I couldn`t hear. When the neighbor went I asked steve what was going on, he told me and I asked if it was ok by him if I went to talk with the neighbor,Steve said yes.

 

I went to the boundry ( there was no fence ) and the neighbor and his wife were sitting on the steps. I asked for permission to enter the property, which they gave. I asked why they were concerned and they told me there could have been some of their children on their property, in front of the aircraft and I may not have been able to stop. I made it quite clear to them that there were no children there and I didn`t see any children anywhere else in their yard, on both ocassions. I told them the flight and what I`d had done was perfectly legal but as far as they were concerned, nothing I`d said mattered to them or made any difference.

 

He was the one who came to see Steve but she was the one doing all the talking to me. If I told you all she said, it would take too long and you wouldn`t believe it. She got angrier and orded me off her property. As I started to walk away, she yelled out " I`ll see you in court. " I simply turned around and said " Give it your best shot. "

 

Not finished yet, Unfortunately.....A couple of weeks went by and I received a call from the CASA inspector in Brisbane. He told me that the lady had made a formal complaint and he wanted to know what was going on. I explained it all to him and the CASA inspector was satisfied. It was all over and I never needed to go to court.

 

I later learned that Steve and the neighbor had been fighting for a while and it started over some borrowed tools. Sadly,the result of it all was that Steve decided it wasn`t worth the trouble he would have from flying off his property and gave the idea up. I still see Steve now and then and he hasn`t withdrawn permission. I still have the original. Where would it all have ended, if I didn`t bother to ask for writen permission?

 

Frank.

 

Ps, I havn`t seen Steve for a while, I might fly in to see him this weekend.....

That's what I mean about idiot proof .

 

Didn't your father tell you , that the worlds full of idiots ?

 

 

[Steve Donald]

Steve it would be helpful to know just what has happened on insurance. I think you said RAAus insurance is making demands on you? I don't understand that. Have they paid a claim to your "mate"? You might, not know, I suppose. Did you have aircraft insurance that included public liability? It seems strange that any insurance company is having a go at you.

No it's not RAAUZ this fellow chased around looking for compensation and finally phoned RAAUZ he said they told him he had to write me a letter of demand then I send it to RAAUZ with a copy of the accident report, Then RAAUZ send it to PBS insurance brokers in Sa the insurance co is Alliance, But no no payments made yet and when they do accept a claim then I get hit with a excess cost, I was told they often delay the processing order to observe if doubts arise which can then cost the claimant even genuine cost he has his own income cover no waiting period , he does the same job as me , I am at work now 12hr shift did a 3hr this morning he's talking another month off yet, he's partying towing boats fishing quad bike riding, no way could I d those things but I can do my job bloody sore, but satisfying because the contrast is s o evident I will post my CT report just so others can see what I am saying is fact, this has been very interesting , but I must say how great it is to get advise support and objective ideas, and for that I am very thankful cheers guys

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well that's a different story, and makes a lot more sense.

 

If it's a substantial claim this could go on for years.

 

What caused the engine to stop?

 

 

[dazza 38]

No it's not RAAUZ this fellow chased around looking for compensation and finally phoned RAAUZ he said they told him he had to write me a letter of demand then I send it to RAAUZ with a copy of the accident report, Then RAAUZ send it to PBS insurance brokers in Sa the insurance co is Alliance, But no no payments made yet and when they do accept a claim then I get hit with a excess cost, I was told they often delay the processing order to observe if doubts arise which can then cost the claimant even genuine cost he has his own income cover no waiting period , he does the same job as me , I am at work now 12hr shift did a 3hr this morning he's talking another month off yet, he's partying towing boats fishing quad bike riding, no way could I d those things but I can do my job bloody sore, but satisfying because the contrast is s o evident I will post my CT report just so others can see what I am saying is fact, this has been very interesting , but I must say how great it is to get advise support and objective ideas, and for that I am very thankful cheers guys

So I take it that this means that the pilot is covered by our RAA insurance if the passenger gets hurt ?

 

 

[Teckair]

That's what I mean about idiot proof .Didn't your father tell you , that the worlds full of idiots ?

No but it didn't take long for me to work it out for myself.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Some mate! What a disgusting way to behave. Hopefully what goes around, comes around and he finds himself holding the short end of the stick one day. Glad you're on the mend and well enough to work again.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[facthunter]

Steve probably isn't right to work yet but he feels he has to. A lot of people regard hitting insurance companies is a fair cop. A lot of insurance companies try to avoid paying too. Claims costs will always be covered by higher premiums later. That is the way it works. This cover is what is provided as part of your flying membership. You executive think it is a good thing and I do too. Nev

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

From the raaus website:

 

"The cover has an indemnity limit of up to $10,000,000 for liability arising from third party property damage or bodily injury including a sub-limit of up to $250,000 for liability arising from injuries to passengers (including student pilots). Depending on individual circumstances, you may require more than the limits described above, so you may need to maintain additional individual insurance."

 

http://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Members-Liability-Policy.pdf

 

 

[kaz3g]

What you are calling a waiver, may be a warning of inherent dangers, and the signature may be the Insurance company's proof that certain dangers were pointed out.You cannot have someone sign away their right to sue you if you are negligent.

A waiver doesn't affect the right to sue...it does affect the outcome the litigant can expect if the waiver (indemnity) is properly drafted.

 

Kaz

 

 

[dutchroll]

No it's not RAAUZ this fellow chased around looking for compensation...

Wow. Sorry to hear about all the trauma Steve.

My wife is a doctor, and this is becoming a real problem in society. She sees it every day at work. Yeah ambulance chasing lawyers and "no win-no fee" schemes are part of the problem as they give people completely unrealistic expectations (the compo they actually get is never anywhere near what the lawyers say they'll get), but also there is a strongly emerging attitude among many people of always wanting something for nothing. If they so much as break a toenail, they're after compo from someone - anyone. They're no longer happy to have walked away with their life and their health after a genuine accident. They're not happy to allow the courts to deal with any criminal causes of their injuries and impose punishment where appropriate. They want cash in hand and they want it ASAP. As an interesting aside, her medical experience is that these types of people often do not "recover" from their injuries until the compo claim is settled. Their post-accident health problems, although real injuries in the first place, transform into something more psychosomatic. She is forever telling them "if you really want to get better, sort out and finalise your compo".

 

I think the lessons for everyone might be:

 

1) If you're considering taking people flying, be wary of exactly what level of insurance you have.

 

2) You never really quite know who your mates are until the sh*t hits the fan.

 

Get well soon...

 

 

[Steve Donald]

Well that's a different story, and makes a lot more sense.If it's a substantial claim this could go on for years.

What caused the engine to stop?

Once I'm feeling better I will Complete an accurate accessment of the cause, I think it unwise to guess because some people start fiddling with their engines to search of a bogus, and then may lead to creating one, its happened on a few Jab engines I know of so as soon as I find the exact problem I will post it immediately .

 

 

[Steve Donald]

Wow. Sorry to hear about all the trauma Steve.My wife is a doctor, and this is becoming a real problem in society. She sees it every day at work. Yeah ambulance chasing lawyers and "no win-no fee" schemes are part of the problem as they give people completely unrealistic expectations (the compo they actually get is never anywhere near what the lawyers say they'll get), but also there is a strongly emerging attitude among many people of always wanting something for nothing. If they so much as break a toenail, they're after compo from someone - anyone. They're no longer happy to have walked away with their life and their health after a genuine accident. They're not happy to allow the courts to deal with any criminal causes of their injuries and impose punishment where appropriate. They want cash in hand and they want it ASAP. As an interesting aside, her medical experience is that these types of people often do not "recover" from their injuries until the compo claim is settled. Their post-accident health problems, although real injuries in the first place, transform into something more psychosomatic. She is forever telling them "if you really want to get better, sort out and finalise your compo".

 

I think the lessons for everyone might be:

 

1) If you're considering taking people flying, be wary of exactly what level of insurance you have.

 

2) You never really quite know who your mates are until the sh*t hits the fan.

 

Get well soon...

Thank you, Your Wife is a wise Woman, I have heard similar views from Doctor Aviators for years now it certainly ups the cost for insurance for all of us and in each category that we require it. As for points 1&2 Spot on, Cheers Steve

 

 

[Greg Spiers]

It happens, acquaintance of mine trashed an R22 into some power wires, commercial ops, dropped it on the ground, injured the passenger, trashed the chopper. The insurance company paid out the pax, paid out the helicopter owner, paid out the power company and all the hangers on and then went after the pilot. He lost his job, wife and family, house, any tax return he ever gets, no prospects of getting much insurance for just about anything, can't get a job and still owes millions!!!

 

Take care, insurance companies don't give a flying frog who you are or what the circumstances are, if they can they will always go for the money.

 

Young pilot in NT committed suicide because he was threatened with this type of outcome after putting a Cessna down in Arnhemland, many years ago, in the worst weather you can imagine. The operators insurance company would have gone him because of the circumstances and the CAA wasn't going to be any help either........By the way, the aircraft is still flying, pitty, he isn't.

 

Doom and Gloom I know but it is all to evident and frequent we, the general flying recreators don't hear about most of them.

 

Keep flying but keep safe.

 

Bigglesgreggles.

 

 

[Steve Donald]

It happens, acquaintance of mine trashed an R22 into some power wires, commercial ops, dropped it on the ground, injured the passenger, trashed the chopper. The insurance company paid out the pax, paid out the helicopter owner, paid out the power company and all the hangers on and then went after the pilot. He lost his job, wife and family, house, any tax return he ever gets, no prospects of getting much insurance for just about anything, can't get a job and still owes millions!!!Take care, insurance companies don't give a flying frog who you are or what the circumstances are, if they can they will always go for the money.

 

Young pilot in NT committed suicide because he was threatened with this type of outcome after putting a Cessna down in Arnhemland, many years ago, in the worst weather you can imagine. The operators insurance company would have gone him because of the circumstances and the CAA wasn't going to be any help either........By the way, the aircraft is still flying, pitty, he isn't.

 

Doom and Gloom I know but it is all to evident and frequent we, the general flying recreators don't hear about most of them.

 

Keep flying but keep safe.

 

Bigglesgreggles.

Oh hell really no way I could handle anything like that, what the hec have I got myself into what a mess.

 

 

[facthunter]

Doubt the insurance company we use would behave like that Steve. You don't need this kind of worry. Stressing won't help you heal up.

 

Paying for an inspection of a two stroke engine to find a definite cause of the failure will be a waste of time in most cases. If it stopped suddenly it will probably involve rings getting jammed in the exhaust port. You can get a good idea of this by removing the exhaust manifold first and inspecting visually. Two strokes have a bit of a track record of failing suddenly. I don't want to over emphasise that though but there are not a lot of partial failures . There are a few other possibilities for engine failure. but look at that one first. (IF you feel you need to do this) Nev