Requirements for L2/L4 maintainer authorisation

[BoxFat]

Folks,

 

Can anybody advise me about the requirements for registration as an L2 and L4 maintainer ? My son-in-law is a RAAF trained airframe/engine tech and also has part LAME training. From reading the RA-AUS ops manual he would meet most requirements but I don't understand the parts relating to LSA experience and how that is obtained or assessed. I have written to the tech manager some weeks ago but I suspect they have more pressing things on their mind.

 

Thanks,

 

BF

 

 

[dazza 38]

I am also a RAAF trained airframe/engine tech, but I am not a L2, 12 years experience working on F111's and Tornado's was not enough experience.From memory it was something to do with a Rag and Tube aircraft was more complicated than a F111 or something like that.

 

 

[BoxFat]

Flipping Heck Dazza ! Then what does one have to do get qualified ? Assemble a plane from cardboard toilet roll holder thingees and kleenex and fly it to Tassie and back ?

 

More seriously...is there a course one can do then ? If so, it would probably be cost effective for me to sponsor my son-in-law through one before my 100 hoursly falls due.

 

 

[old man emu]

Boxy,

 

The L4 rating is the highest one can get with RAA. It is issued to select people who have the responsibility of approving airplanes before their first flight. So these people have to have lots and lots of practical experience dealing with all the systems of a light airplane.

 

An L2 is qualified to carry out maintenance. Without belittling any L2s, I would suggest that an L2 is equivalent to an unlicensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (although a heck of a lot of RAA L2s are in fact CASA LAMEs)

 

Why can't you son get an L2 ticket? Probably because his experience is with a completely different type of airplane design (unless he was working on light communications and observation types). What an L2 needs is greasy hands experience on simple systems. An L2 also needs to be able to put right mistakes and damage the correct way, without having access to highly complex maintenance documentation. I suppose that the best way to put it is that an L2 needs the experience with very light aircraft construction and design to be able to spot something that looks wrong without resorting to reference books.

 

I know it sounds like I'm putting your son's experience down, but put it another way, he is used to working with Thoroughbred stock. An L2 works with cart horses and hacks.

 

OME

 

 

[ruffasguts]

Boxy,The L4 rating is the highest one can get with RAA. It is issued to select people who have the responsibility of approving airplanes before their first flight. So these people have to have lots and lots of practical experience dealing with all the systems of a light airplane.

An L2 is qualified to carry out maintenance. Without belittling any L2s, I would suggest that an L2 is equivalent to an unlicensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (although a heck of a lot of RAA L2s are in fact CASA LAMEs)

 

Why can't you son get an L2 ticket? Probably because his experience is with a completely different type of airplane design (unless he was working on light communications and observation types). What an L2 needs is greasy hands experience on simple systems. An L2 also needs to be able to put right mistakes and damage the correct way, without having access to highly complex maintenance documentation. I suppose that the best way to put it is that an L2 needs the experience with very light aircraft construction and design to be able to spot something that looks wrong without resorting to reference books.

 

I know it sounds like I'm putting your son's experience down, but put it another way, he is used to working with Thoroughbred stock. An L2 works with cart horses and hacks.

 

OME

OME that is the best written post you have ever penned

 

Mick W

 

 

[facthunter]

Not that I am an expert at all here, but to add to OME's contribution.

 

Coming to U/L's after going GA, then big stuff and then returning ? to the really light stuff it takes a while to realise that a 1/4 inch bolt in sheer is pretty strong and that the EAA ( They have a lot of publications Tony Bingelis' for instance on building have a way of "crafting" an aeroplane that although apparently flimsy, is quite adequate for the job. There are NO U/L's built like a Pilatus Porter. or a Grumman AG CAT..It's a new world of structures. sheet Al only 15 thou thick. Plywood Glues, . Wheels off go carts. Also there are very few two stroke front line fighters, No commercial planes with home made wooden props etc Big models have more in common with them than anything else. I started with models when I was 10 so it's something of a full circle. I had (still have somewhere), all the plans for the Pou de Ciel, IN French and a hell of a lot of Henri Mignet's books. Surely his ideas would be very close to what the U/L movement is about. A lot of the real art of crafting a plane is lost, especially the wood and fabric ones. Who is across carbon fibre. The high tech edge of progress. There would hardly be anybody who is across the whole gamut of what we are. We actually don't do anything like as much building as once was the case. PITY.... Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

Flipping Heck Dazza ! Then what does one have to do get qualified ? Assemble a plane from cardboard toilet roll holder thingees and kleenex and fly it to Tassie and back ?More seriously...is there a course one can do then ? If so, it would probably be cost effective for me to sponsor my son-in-law through one before my 100 hoursly falls due.

On a serious note Boxfat. His RAAF training is more than enough to cover the theory side of things. He just has to get some hands on experience with UL aircraft under supervision of a L2. He needs two L2 guys to sign him off as being competent.( I think).

 

 

[Thirsty]

Correct. Get him to work with a current l2 and get a diary from ra aus to record all the work he does. Then get the l2 to sign off the diary entries. After a few months he can send in the diary along with an application form and, if we have a tech manager :), he will likely get his unrestricted l2.

 

That's exactly what I did a couple of years ago and I am an ex raaf tech as well though I worked on helicopters so I was part way there :)

 

 

[BoxFat]

Excellent - thanks everyone for all the info. My son-in-law hasn't applied yet - I'm just finding out for him as he is keen to do it. He loves everything mechanical and got just as excited about my Rotax and the design of the Foxbat as he did about the Super Hornet when he first got his hands ("Blackhander" hands in fact !) - on that.

 

So.. If understand correctly he needs to come to an arrangement with a current L2 or perhaps 2 different L2s to do some work and earn the necessary references. He is in the Brisbane valley (near Amberly of course !) so the next question would be where/who would be the best place to go there ? If he does that, I will then fly him over here to WA and get him to spend some time with someone here as well (cunning plan to see the grandchildren !)

 

 

[BoxFat]

Hmmm..thinking ..thinking...smacks forehead ! I have other daughters...what are the chances I can marry one of them off to a bloke who is ALREADY an L2 and save all this fuss ??

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Box fat, I am an unrestricted L2 and have been for some years now. I often maintain and sign off training / hire aircraft which need an L2 sign off, and I certainly wouldn't refer to them as 'cart horses and hacks' to quote OME. Especially so when you see a new student go for his/her solo flight in one. To apply for an L2 rating you need to state your case and experience in writing , and be recommended by two other unlimited L2s.

 

You can get a limited L2 which for instance would allow you to only perform certain maintenance tasks, such as avionics / electrical only,or maintenance of flex wing trikes for instance only. A limited L2 probabily wouldn't allow you to sign off maintenance on training or hire aircraft.

 

When recommending someone myself I want to see some hands -on experience on UL aircraft or engines etc. Although experience in other areas is applicable and is considered, you still need UL experience which should also include 2stroke engine work. You wouldn't get a recommendation from me without it. After all it is an Ultralight maintenance authority, and there are still a lot of 2 strokes out there.

 

Best of luck with your efforts. Most L2 appreciate a hand if you show genuine interest, so it is possible to gain the experience you will need. Additionally, if you have owned and maintained your own UL for a few years, that would count with me, as most folks tend to do their own maintenance for private ops ..........,,,,Maj...

 

 

[M61A1]

I am also a RAAF trained airframe/engine tech, but I am not a L2, 12 years experience working on F111's and Tornado's was not enough experience.From memory it was something to do with a Rag and Tube aircraft was more complicated than a F111 or something like that.

Without being too critical of defence force training (I'm one myself), the rec machines are simpler, but, unlike the military gear, where you can only apply solutions and limits found in publications, you need to have a broader understanding of the whole aircraft than most ex defence people have. I know plenty of people currently employed looking after complex military machines, but, I could count on one hand those who I would trust working on my aircraft. You need to be the engine (piston), airframe sheetmetal worker, avionics guy and more often than not, the structural engineer on rec stuff, especially if it's not factory built.

Most Defence trained personnel, can go to the correct publication, get the correct bolt, install it, tighten it to the correct torque and safety it really neatly, then neatly document what they just did, and not much more. I say most, not all, because there are exceptions that actually take a deeper interest in what they do.

 

 

[BoxFat]

Yep.. Understood. He's one of the latter kind - sees the machine not the manual. He was Dux of his Wagga course but I've seen him work on lots of stuff over the years and he's a fair-dinkum machine whisperer. I would back him to win the Dakar rally with a Vespa and a Swiss Army knife.

 

 

[M61A1]

Yep.. Understood. He's one of the latter kind - sees the machine not the manual. He was Dux of his Wagga course but I've seen him work on lots of stuff over the years and he's a fair-dinkum machine whisperer. I would back him to win the Dakar rally with a Vespa and a Swiss Army knife.

Sounds like you're on a winner there then........Now about these other daughters.......no, wait I'm already married. I' have to check with the wife about a mistress.

 

 

[BoxFat]

Mate, if the marriage has already survived the aviation obsession a mistress is probably not a deal-breaker. But as regards my daughters as specific candidates for the role, I say simply this: I have a shovel. You will never be found.

 

 

[Thirsty]

Actually one of the people recommending can be a lame. Only one MUST be an L2. And if he is restricted in some way if he does get his L2 authorisation he can still work on training aircraft so long as he doesn't go outside his authorisation.

 

If he can get a wide experience with a flying school for instance he'll be right. I'm unrestricted though I had never worked on a rotax engine before. Even if you are unrestricted you are trusted to recognise your limits and only do work you KNOW you are comfortable doing.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Actually one of the people recommending can be a lame. Only one MUST be an L2. And if he is restricted in some way if he does get his L2 authorisation he can still work on training aircraft so long as he doesn't go outside his authorisation.If he can get a wide experience with a flying school for instance he'll be right. I'm unrestricted though I had never worked on a rotax engine before. Even if you are unrestricted you are trusted to recognise your limits and only do work you KNOW you are comfortable doing.

I agree and it is very important for L2 guys or L1's for that matter ,who not comfortable in doing a particular task to man up and admit that they are not sure. There is nothing wrong with that. People can not know everything. It isn't a problem, just find out how to do that particular task by getting somebody who is confident and experienced to show you or get them to do it. There is nothing worse than people who think they know and in reality don't know.

 

 

[av8vfr]

Coming from an Avionics background, I find it troubling with RAA, that as long as you have a L2 licence (engine airframe trade) you can deal with avionics.

 

I understand that the 100hr / annual is mostly to do with engine / airframe condition, and the sweet magic of avionics is mostly trouble free, but to troubleshoot or maintain a complex digital avionics suite is way beyond the average L2 tech.

 

But for example, what's the difference from an unrestricted L2 who is 95.0% Rag & Tube and inspecting your CF speed machine and signing off on it for example??

 

 

[facthunter]

The last few contributors have highlighted some of the practical problems the organisation faces. Instructor standards will be one thing but L2 and maintenance issues another, and probably more difficult. The variability of our aircraft have more challenges than other sections of aviation as there is more need to use "nous" than apply a ready made book "fix" ( which won't exist)..

 

Getting the backlog covered is NOTHING like the end of our issues and challenges. The solutions will have to be PRACTICAL and effective, NOT beaurocratic and prescriptive, that just buck- shove. Time to get real folks. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

Mate, if the marriage has already survived the aviation obsession a mistress is probably not a deal-breaker. But as regards my daughters as specific candidates for the role, I say simply this: I have a shovel. You will never be found.

I was sure one of your posts was offering a daughter in exchange for L2 work, anyway.....I would probably feel the same way in regard to my daughter........ but since you have a shovel, and made your abilities clear, I do have some other work available.

[M61A1]

The last few contributors have highlighted some of the practical problems the organisation faces. Instructor standards will be one thing but L2 and maintenance issues another, and probably more difficult. The variability of our aircraft have more challenges than other sections of aviation as there is more need to use "nous" than apply a ready made book "fix" ( which won't exist)..Getting the backlog covered is NOTHING like the end of our issues and challenges. The solutions will have to be PRACTICAL and effective, NOT beaurocratic and prescriptive, that just buck- shove. Time to get real folks. Nev

Call me pessimistic, but, I reckon that is exactly what we won't get. It wouldn't surprise me if they all of a sudden required all 95.10 owner/builders to supply a complete maintenance manual with damage limits and tolerances along with standard structural repairs.

[M61A1]

Folks,Can anybody advise me about the requirements for registration as an L2 and L4 maintainer ? My son-in-law is a RAAF trained airframe/engine tech and also has part LAME training. From reading the RA-AUS ops manual he would meet most requirements but I don't understand the parts relating to LSA experience and how that is obtained or assessed. I have written to the tech manager some weeks ago but I suspect they have more pressing things on their mind.

 

Thanks,

 

BF

If he hasn't already, a copy of the AC43 is very handy, it's like a repair manual for anything that doesn't have a manual. It can be downloaded or as I have, in hard copy, surprisingly cheap for the information within.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The AC43 is a reference manual for Approved and Recommended methods and procedures. When I was in the military they also referred to it as a reference source, so he may already be familiar with it..It doesn't cover everything but is good for basic and well proven repair schemes.........Maj...

 

 

[BoxFat]

Yes I am a fully qualified shovel user. All type ratings in hand: Big ones, small ones, long handle or short. I will happily move a hole from one place to another and back again in return for you doing my 100 hourly. I have a lot of experience at this due to my wife's rather fickle aesthetic approach to the wasteland formerly known as "our garden".

 

Thanks for the advice about the AC thingee. I have not heard of it but it sounds very useful. I gather it is a military document ?? I will ask the lad if he's got one.

 

 

[facthunter]

RAAus have it for about 38 dollars. Unless things have changed. ESSENTIAL reference. Nev