Should I change flight schools? concern of maintenance & plane safety

[speed_racer]

Hi all,

 

I'm writing this post to ask for your fellow pilots advice..

 

I have done 28 hours of flying with 0.5 hours left to complete my solo circuits. I thought this is what I had left to get my solo certificate for my RA licence. However I have been advised by the CFI that I still need to do my training syllabus of prac search and landing, advanced stalls and short field take off and landings. (i have done short field so i need to discuss that with them)

 

My problems I have came across are..

 

1. While flying a jabiru J160 (late model) We had a rough running engine while taking off after a glide approach and had to call stopping and put it down on the remaining runway. That was a throughbolt issue with the engine which required a rebuild.

 

2. While flying solo in the same aircraft a few weeks later I experienced something similar during a touch and go and landed on the remaining runway. This grounded the plane was put down to carby icing and later was advised the planes were running lean and are now richer so only to turn on carby heat when below 2800rpm on base before final and only throttle slowly with 5 to 10 seconds between idle and full rpm during take off.

 

3. Last weekend I was given one of their older planes and after a pre solo check, I went solo to find during downwind, the brakes didn't pump up as expected, I asked for a stop and go which confirmed while on the ground I had no brakes, so next one i advised the tower of the problem and used full flaps and used every bit of runway hoping to not hit the fence, I successfully landed and slowed it down enough by the end to taxi to the apron. It turned out there was no brake fluid left, during my pre flight checks I did not see any leak from the calipers as they are parked on grass. The CFI's excuse was oh that happens all the time, especially during summer because people ride the brakes and they fade away, I told him its no excuse and brake fade is usually pumped out during the downwind component of the circuit.

 

As a new pilot, this all seems concerning, so my question is, am i being paranoid or should I use a different flying school at moorabbin?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

scary stuff.

 

 

[ayavner]

hi speed_racer,

 

to answer the overall question, if you are concerned about safety or maintenance, then yes you should change if they are unable to address your concerns. As to what's left, its not just a matter of x hours flying + 5 hours solo, but there is a syllabus to be followed and it takes as long as it takes. Then there's the practice test and the real thing - sounds like you're close though!

 

 

[alf jessup]

Hi all,I'm writing this post to ask for your fellow pilots advice..

 

I have done 28 hours of flying with 0.5 hours left to complete my solo circuits. I thought this is what I had left to get my solo certificate for my RA licence. However I have been advised by the CFI that I still need to do my training syllabus of prac search and landing, advanced stalls and short field take off and landings. (i have done short field so i need to discuss that with them)

 

My problems I have came across are..

 

1. While flying a jabiru J160 (late model) We had a rough running engine while taking off after a glide approach and had to call stopping and put it down on the remaining runway. That was a throughbolt issue with the engine which required a rebuild.

 

2. While flying solo in the same aircraft a few weeks later I experienced something similar during a touch and go and landed on the remaining runway. This grounded the plane was put down to carby icing and later was advised the planes were running lean and are now richer so only to turn on carby heat when below 2800rpm on base before final and only throttle slowly with 5 to 10 seconds between idle and full rpm during take off.

 

3. Last weekend I was given one of their older planes and after a pre solo check, I went solo to find during downwind, the brakes didn't pump up as expected, I asked for a stop and go which confirmed while on the ground I had no brakes, so next one i advised the tower of the problem and used full flaps and used every bit of runway hoping to not hit the fence, I successfully landed and slowed it down enough by the end to taxi to the apron. It turned out there was no brake fluid left, during my pre flight checks I did not see any leak from the calipers as they are parked on grass. The CFI's excuse was oh that happens all the time, especially during summer because people ride the brakes and they fade away, I told him its no excuse and brake fade is usually pumped out during the downwind component of the circuit.

 

As a new pilot, this all seems concerning, so my question is, am i being paranoid or should I use a different flying school at moorabbin?

Speedy,

 

I feel that we cannot make that decision for you as you are paying the Al Bundy's out of your pocket.

 

It is all up to you unfortunately if you are feeling uncomfortable about the aircraft or the school/training well you have to decide that.

 

If you feel your getting good value for money stay with them.

 

As for the engine well it is an engine just like the rest of them put together by humans for humans to rely on.

 

One thing though is I feel you should have noticed or checked the brake fluid reservoir had sufficient fluid in it as part of you pre flight check as you are ultimately the PIC even on a solo flight. (nothing is going to come out of the callipers if there is nothing in the reservoir)

 

Also after starting to taxi you should be checking the brakes actually work as that should be part of the checklist, not waiting until your barrelling down the bitumen at 70kts after landing.

 

If you do have bake failure on a runway at high speeds there are options to stop, switch it off and head to the gravel or grass alongside the runway as that will slow you up far quicker than the blacktop.

 

Alf

 

 

[68volksy]

Sounds like the maintenance could be a bit lax. It's a very big problem in RA training in my view and can happen when the people maintaining the aircraft are the same people hiring and training in the aircraft. If these kind of issues happened in a GA school the CFI would generally be tearing the LAME a new one but in an RA school where they are often the same person this doesn't happen.

 

I'd be watching the instructors approach to maintenance and if you get the feeling they're blowing smoke up your skirt then change schools. If you'd like more information from them on the issues then ask. They should be going to great lengths to talk to you about any issues, explain properly how they occurred and what they'll do to make sure it doesn't happen again or explain why it is not a concern.

 

If you're not comfortable with the aircraft then do not fly it!

 

 

[facthunter]

Having light brake application on during taxi can result in the pedal going down a bit . This is leakage somewhere and doesn't have to be at the caliper(s) It can be internal master cylinder You can sometimes pump them up but you should be able to get a firm pedal before it goes well down. If you had to do this repeatedly, the part should be serviced. Brake fade is when the brakes are hot and the fluid boils. IF you aren't happy go somewhere else. Nev

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Mate: It's your bum in that airplane. If you're at all unhappy with them, walk. Simple as that. It's YOUR life and YOUR money.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Speedy I endorse all the advice above, and add this: have you done all your training with the one school/instructor?

 

If so, you are probably missing out. Every instructor has strengths and weaknesses, different approaches and styles. You learn from them all. Don't rush the training to reach milestones; give yourself time to absorb the good advice and bad, sort out what is best for you. I bet the best instructors are not the best at aircraft maintenance either.

 

 

[speed_racer]

Thanks for the advice guys. No one wants to advise either way so perhaps ill ask a different way, if you were hiring a plane from someone, would you rehire from them if you came across these issues?

 

In terms of checking the brake during taxi, I did.. During my pre solo check it worked not good but about average for a jab.. Even on run up checks, it started to move until i put the brake on one more click..

 

My lesson learnt here is to include brake fluid in the pre flight, they never mentioned it in the check list I was given..

 

It was ready for its 50 hour maintenance check too..

 

 

[coljones]

what happens to the brakes during your runup. My runups last for at least 15 secs at 2000 rpm and if I couldn't hold the bird on brakes it would be no fly for me. Has never happened, I have a couple of good L2s looking out for me.

 

 

[Sean]

No one wants to advise either way so perhaps ill ask a different way, if you were hiring a plane from someone, would you rehire from them if you came across these issues?

 

No.

 

Sean.

 

 

[metalman]

Hi all,I'm writing this post to ask for your fellow pilots advice..

 

I have done 28 hours of flying with 0.5 hours left to complete my solo circuits. I thought this is what I had left to get my solo certificate for my RA licence. However I have been advised by the CFI that I still need to do my training syllabus of prac search and landing, advanced stalls and short field take off and landings. (i have done short field so i need to discuss that with them)

 

My problems I have came across are..

 

1. While flying a jabiru J160 (late model) We had a rough running engine while taking off after a glide approach and had to call stopping and put it down on the remaining runway. That was a throughbolt issue with the engine which required a rebuild.

 

2. While flying solo in the same aircraft a few weeks later I experienced something similar during a touch and go and landed on the remaining runway. This grounded the plane was put down to carby icing and later was advised the planes were running lean and are now richer so only to turn on carby heat when below 2800rpm on base before final and only throttle slowly with 5 to 10 seconds between idle and full rpm during take off.

 

3. Last weekend I was given one of their older planes and after a pre solo check, I went solo to find during downwind, the brakes didn't pump up as expected, I asked for a stop and go which confirmed while on the ground I had no brakes, so next one i advised the tower of the problem and used full flaps and used every bit of runway hoping to not hit the fence, I successfully landed and slowed it down enough by the end to taxi to the apron. It turned out there was no brake fluid left, during my pre flight checks I did not see any leak from the calipers as they are parked on grass. The CFI's excuse was oh that happens all the time, especially during summer because people ride the brakes and they fade away, I told him its no excuse and brake fade is usually pumped out during the downwind component of the circuit.

 

As a new pilot, this all seems concerning, so my question is, am i being paranoid or should I use a different flying school at moorabbin?

The maintenance issues aside, and having engine probs in a Jabiru isn't unusual ,I get the feeling your not happy with the syllabus, it's been a while but I think it's standard to do the training you've mentioned after you've gone solo. It has a flow so your considered safe in the circuit , then before letting you go further afield there's a few things you need to learn.

I can remember being so sick of circuits and just wanted to get out there and fly around , but now, oddly , I really enjoy the time in the circuit getting acquainted with a new aircraft, experimenting with different landings and so on. You've asked some opinions, and it's a bit of a guess as to which school your talking about ,but if its the one I think it may be I'd be sticking with them , the CFI I'm thinking of is a good pilot and easy to talk to ( go to him with your concerns) . Another thing is your flying ultralights ,part of the trip is being ready for an engine failure at any moment , the 912rotax is such a good engine it can instill a fair bit of complacency ,you've obviously been taught well enough that a few issues haven't turned into anything major, my advice, have a talk to the CFI about it , you cam send me a private message if you want to talk , and just so you know I'm based at Coldstream and have no connections , other than knowing people in the area, to any of the schools around Melbourne ,

 

Cheers Matty

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Volsky mate, I wish I was involved with these GA schools that you speak of so highly, and compare them to our "laxed" RAA schools and standards. Must be a different operator to the one I recently flew with in your area, as the standards of EVERYTHING there were so bad I swapped aircraft.

 

Speed racer. I would be changing schools, but not for the safety concerns, but rather for the standards of instruction. As others have said, finding out you have no brakes in the air is YOUR problem. The Jab flight manual insists on a thorough check of the brake fluid and a taxi check of the brakes.

 

You are the PIC and responsible for the safety of the flight. Its no good discovering them to be gone in the air. But, your instructor is correct, they do fade quickly and can fade significantly towards the end of the pad life. I fail to see how its the schools fault if the brakes were ok during taxi.

 

 

[speed_racer]

Thanks for your advice guys. I might have a squizz around at some different schools and see what others will offer RA training within moorabbin. I've always been keen to fly a tecnam but it seems as though you have to drive out to horsham or stawell (in VIC) to fly one of those.

 

 

[speed_racer]

motzartmerv, the planes are parked on grass.. so if there is a leak it was undetectable. if the brakes faded, that would be fair enough.. But the fact that it had no brake fluid is very concerning.. its a $10 bottle that could of easily fixed it and its just something that I will now check myself and not rely on the school's check flight list. If anyone has a copy of the pre flight for a jab and could link it to me, i would much appreciate it. thanks heaps!

 

 

[facthunter]

There's nothing wrong with a Jab as a training aircraft. ALL planes should be maintained properly. Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

As a new pilot, this all seems concerning

 

get your bloody arse out of there now I don't like what you have written one bit

 

when was the last inspection off this school done

 

if you were told that something happens all the time there is a problem with their duty of care and management

 

please don't be a statistic and another reason for casa to become involved this in my opion should investagated thourghly neil

 

 

[speed_racer]

As a new pilot, this all seems concerningget your bloody **** out of there now I don't like what you have written one bit

when was the last inspection off this school done

 

if you were told that something happens all the time there is a problem with their duty of care and management

 

please don't be a statistic and another reason for casa to become involved this in my opion should investagated thourghly neil

Thanks. That's the confirmation I wanted. I dont know when the inspection of the school has been done...

 

 

[gareth lacey]

SP

 

I changed schools twice before finding the right one ,aeroplanes all low hrs and maintained and the quality of the training was very good

 

if they wont let you see the maintenance records be very suspect and if you find any thing on your preflight do not fly , on one occasion the plane at the first school would not start and i refused o go up ,(46 year old Cessna 150)

 

and have on 1 occasion cut short my lesson because of abuse by the instructor and never went up with him again its your life ,make good judgements and you will be safe

 

cheers gareth

 

 

[metalman]

Thanks for your advice guys. I might have a squizz around at some different schools and see what others will offer RA training within moorabbin. I've always been keen to fly a tecnam but it seems as though you have to drive out to horsham or stawell (in VIC) to fly one of those.

Coldstream use a Tecnam Echo for RAA, good school, and there's a pretty lively social life there on the weekends as well

cheers Matty

 

 

[Powerin]

motzartmerv, the planes are parked on grass.. so if there is a leak it was undetectable. if the brakes faded, that would be fair enough.. But the fact that it had no brake fluid is very concerning.. its a $10 bottle that could of easily fixed it and its just something that I will now check myself and not rely on the school's check flight list. If anyone has a copy of the pre flight for a jab and could link it to me, i would much appreciate it. thanks heaps!

All the Jabiru manuals can be downloaded from the Jabiru website here. Pre-flight procedures can be found on page 4-3 (Section 4 page 3) of the Pilot Handbook.

After a quick scan of the preflight procedures I can't see anything about checking brake fluid...only the actual brakes.

 

 

[joeyo68]

Speed_racer,

 

It comes down to if you are happy to pay for the services that they are providing. I suspect that if you are flying from Moorabbin, then you will be paying a premium for that service. Depending on where you are located around Melbourne, there are places like Ballarat, Coldstream, Tyabb and Tooradin who provide RAA training, at what I would expect a more competitive price than a Moorabbin school, plus you would spend more time each flight in the air, rather than on the ground taxing.

 

I fly out of Tyabb from the Peninsula Aero Club. They do both RAA and GA training, and all of their RAA aircraft are maintained to GA standards thanks to the requirements of some of their customer base. They have Gazelles (which they are phasing out), a Foxbat ( which I believe they are getting more of to replace the Gazelles), and an RAA registered Cessna 162.

 

I believe that Tooradin have Jab's (160 and 170) if you want to stay with the Jab's

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

Cheers,

 

Joe

 

 

[storchy neil]

speed racer your story is getting worse If anyone has a copy of the pre flight for a jab and don't tell me you have not read the flight manual for the plane that you are learning in

 

if not why not

 

neil

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Like i said, I reckon the maintenance is not the issue, the training seems sub standard.

 

 

[speed_racer]

All the Jabiru manuals can be downloaded from the Jabiru website here. Pre-flight procedures can be found on page 4-3 (Section 4 page 3) of the Pilot Handbook.After a quick scan of the preflight procedures I can't see anything about checking brake fluid...only the actual brakes.

Thanks for that. I checked that as well and couldn't see anything listed in there.. So brake fluid isnt a pre flight procedure..

 

speed racer your story is getting worse If anyone has a copy of the pre flight for a jab and don't tell me you have not read the flight manual for the plane that you are learning inif not why not

neil

 

As others have said, finding out you have no brakes in the air is YOUR problem. The Jab flight manual insists on a thorough check of the brake fluid and a taxi check of the brakes.

because we are handed a pre flight checklist that is a A5 sheet, printed and laminated by the school, So I wanted to have a look at the official Jab pre flight checklist to see if there was anything they have forgotten, ok?

 

MozartMerv, Now in relation to your jab manual or laminated sheet the school provided, there is no mention of brake fluid checks..

 

I appreciate the conversation and advice. but no bitchy attitudes or remarks please.