Should I change flight schools? concern of maintenance & plane safety

[poteroo]

All pilots should be able to do a circuit safely, without an operating ASI in a basic light aircraft . Nev

Yes, that's a good exercise they can be given to re-inforce the power x attitude training - but will it necessarily help Speed_racer (post1),to shorten his landing distance?

 

happy days,

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No problems pots, I agree completely, but when ba info is being given then it needs to be balanced doesn't it? Ie, discussion;). Vref is not approach speed. That the sort of basic info that is not school or Instructor dependent:)

 

How do we check the ASI is reading accurately?

 

 

[DWF]

No problems pots, I agree completely, but when ba info is being given then it needs to be balanced doesn't it? Ie, discussion;). Vref is not approach speed. That the sort of basic info that is not school or Instructor dependent:)How do we check the ASI is reading accurately?

From the official J160 POH:

 

 

 

1.6.2 General Airspeed Terminology and Symbols

 

VREF Reference Landing Approach Speed: the airspeed equal to 1.3VSO and is the airspeed used on approach down to 50 feet above the runway when determining landing distances.

 

VSO Stalling Speed: or the minimum steady flight speed at which the aircraft is controllable in the landing configuration.

 

4.2 SPEEDS FOR NORMAL OPERATION

 

Landing Approach: VREF (Speed @ 50 ft) ................................... 63 KIAS

 

3.3.3 Precautionary Landing With Engine Power

 

..............

 

5. Wing Flaps ...............................................FULL ON FINAL APPROACH

 

6. Airspeed ...................................................60 KIAS

 

5.2.2 Stall Speeds

 

.............

 

NOTE: Stalling speeds will reduce as weight is reduced.

 

As I said in my post #43 above I do not profess to be a J160 expert, however the Jabiru J160 POH seems to confirm my general assertions.

 

Contrary to to your statement above, Jabiru seem to think that VREF "is the airspeed used on approach..."

 

Who do I believe? The POH or you?

 

I agree that many people use speeds higher than recommended in the POH but that does not make what I have said incorrect.

 

DWF

 

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes I've seen what the ooh says. I don't think the poh is stating to approach at minimum speed for controllable flight. Do you? I'm not a 160 expert either, but I've survived about 2000 hours instructing in them, and I can say with reasonable amount of certainty that 60 kts for a normal approach is TOO slow. A short field approach as stated ( and called a prec landing in the poh) is a different matter and nt what this thread is about ;).

 

 

[DWF]

Yes I've seen what the ooh says. I don't think the poh is stating to approach at minimum speed for controllable flight. Do you? I'm not a 160 expert either, but I've survived about 2000 hours instructing in them, and I can say with reasonable amount of certainty that 60 kts for a normal approach is TOO slow. A short field approach as stated ( and called a prec landing in the poh) is a different matter and nt what this thread is about ;).

Merv

 

I DID NOT say that "the poh is stating to approach at minimum speed for controllable flight" and I certainly DID NOT say that 60 knots is the normal approach speed for the J160.

 

The POH (and I) said that VSO is the "Stalling Speed: or the minimum steady flight speed at which the aircraft is controllable in the landing configuration."

 

I DID say that the POH states that VREF ...is "the airspeed equal to 1.3 x VSO and is the airspeed used on approach down to 50 feet".

 

The POH also states that VREF in the J160 is 63 knots.

 

I did also say that at reduced weight the aircraft's VSO would be lower and therefore VREF would be lower.

 

 

 

A figure for VREF at 100kg below MTOW (540 kg) for the J160. i.e. at 440kg VREF would be just under 60kts.

 

100/540 = 18.5% less lift is required. Lift is proportional to V squared.

 

The square root of 18.5% of 63kts (MTOW VREF) = 3.4kts approx less airspeed is required for VREF at the lower weight.

 

[This is a quick and dirty method but is probably fairly close to the mark.]

 

 

 

I have not tried to give anyone advice on flying a J160, I have merely stated what is in the POH.

 

You seem to disagree with the speeds recommended in the POH in light of your experience on type. You may well be right to do so, especially for student pilots.

 

I do not think this discussion is too far off thread as the pilot on this occasion seemed to be making a short field or precautionary landing to reduce his landing roll.

 

 

 

DWF

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanx DWF. I wasn't suggesting you were saying so, only that the way the poh reads it seems to suggest that. Thanks for the calc re the stalling speed.

 

My contention is the use of vref as an approach speed. That's all. I realize the jab manual states vref is down TO 50 ft, most other references to vref quote AT 50 ft.

 

Interestingly, the poh for the 170 gives a higher Vref then the 160. Obviously the weight diff is the factor but any one who flies both will tell you the 170 needs to be slower than the 160 or it will float chronically.

 

It's literally impossible to fly a short field vref appch in the 170 using the quoted numbers.

 

We recently found several annomolys with no only the poh but also the engine instillation manuals. Jab have i forned us they will change the errors. they mu have done already.The quality and accuracy of both have always caused problems. ;)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

If you want to see what I mean, look up the 170 from the same website you got the 160 Info from. Find the stall speed for the 170 as 40 kts in landing config, and vref of 65. By their own definition ( which you posted) vref should be 52 kts . ( 40x1.3) so which manual is wrong? Ill answer my own Question.... Both;) . A lot of the performance data is suspect. I can only go off what I've seen and experienced flying a few different varieties, but when the flight manuals say that the 160 has a shorter takeof roll than te 170 I have to question it. You might not believe me, but the fence at the end of the runway will:)

 

 

[DrZoos]

Speedy i wont sit on the fence. Absolutely you should change immediately. Dont fly one more second with these guys.

 

Reason 1 you have safety concerns that had a completely reckless an innappropriate response from the cfi

 

Reason 2 your safety concerns where realised by poor performing and or maintained aircraft

 

Reason 3 your life is worth more then your pride or relationship with these guys

 

Reason 4 the training school should have checked the fluid level for first flight of the day. And each subsequent flight if it was a known issue. Better still the plain should have been grounded till fixed in a training school.

 

Not. Only do i think you should leave but i think you should fill out 3 incident reports to casa and you should include the cfi response in your incident report. The last thing we all want or need is training schools promoting reckless attitudes to safety and or maint. That will just mean there are a hundred more pilots out there that shouldnt be flying like this cfi

 

I dont get angry much but this makes me fume that a cfi would be so reckless, and thus some students are being trained by him to be reckless in their safety.

 

 

[jeffd]

SPI changed schools twice before finding the right one ,aeroplanes all low hrs and maintained and the quality of the training was very good

if they wont let you see the maintenance records be very suspect and if you find any thing on your preflight do not fly , on one occasion the plane at the first school would not start and i refused o go up ,(46 year old Cessna 150)

 

and have on 1 occasion cut short my lesson because of abuse by the instructor and never went up with him again its your life ,make good judgements and you will be safe

 

cheers gareth

abuse by the instructor thats a bit scary especially if ya just learning

 

 

[Robmus]

Thanks for your advice guys. I might have a squizz around at some different schools and see what others will offer RA training within moorabbin. I've always been keen to fly a tecnam but it seems as though you have to drive out to horsham or stawell (in VIC) to fly one of those.

Lethbridge uses a Tecnam in the RAA school, and they are fussy with there maintenance.

Cheers Robert.

 

 

[speed_racer]

Speedy i wont sit on the fence. Absolutely you should change immediately. Dont fly one more second with these guys.Reason 1 you have safety concerns that had a completely reckless an innappropriate response from the cfi

Reason 2 your safety concerns where realised by poor performing and or maintained aircraft

 

Reason 3 your life is worth more then your pride or relationship with these guys

 

Reason 4 the training school should have checked the fluid level for first flight of the day. And each subsequent flight if it was a known issue. Better still the plain should have been grounded till fixed in a training school.

 

Not. Only do i think you should leave but i think you should fill out 3 incident reports to casa and you should include the cfi response in your incident report. The last thing we all want or need is training schools promoting reckless attitudes to safety and or maint. That will just mean there are a hundred more pilots out there that shouldnt be flying like this cfi

 

I dont get angry much but this makes me fume that a cfi would be so reckless, and thus some students are being trained by him to be reckless in their safety.

Thanks for this. It pretty much emphasizes what I was thinking.. I was so pissed off at the incident,

 

 

[speed_racer]

Is your landing reference point the piano keys or numbers at the BEGINNING or the OTHER END of the strip? Aiming beyond and landing too far after the first set of keys is not recommended as you might go to a short strip and what was OK on a long strip can become fraught on anything smaller. Landing close to the first set of keys gives you max landing and rolling distances.Does your school have the aircraft manual on hand or in the plane? - have you read the PILOT'S OPERATING HANDBOOK & APPROVED FLIGHT MANUAL? They are supposed to be in the plane. There is some interesting info in there including operational limits and emergency procedures recommended by the manufacturer There is nothing about checking brake fluid before flights but there is nothing to stop you including it in your preflight checks - but be aware that getting dirt and water vapour into the hydraulics is frownable. You can download a copy from the Jabiru site. Print off your own copy, compare it to the one for the plane and keep it along with annotations.

 

Enjoy!!

Why would my landing reference be at the OTHER end of the strip? but to answer, its at the beginning.. In the case of landing without brakes, my reference was the asphalt before the piano keys to give as much runway as possible.

 

operating handbook is not in the plane, they do however have a print out of the pre start/taxi/line up checks and also speeds for 'whichever' configuration..

 

 

[speed_racer]

Speed_racer,It comes down to if you are happy to pay for the services that they are providing. I suspect that if you are flying from Moorabbin, then you will be paying a premium for that service. Depending on where you are located around Melbourne, there are places like Ballarat, Coldstream, Tyabb and Tooradin who provide RAA training, at what I would expect a more competitive price than a Moorabbin school, plus you would spend more time each flight in the air, rather than on the ground taxing.

I fly out of Tyabb from the Peninsula Aero Club. They do both RAA and GA training, and all of their RAA aircraft are maintained to GA standards thanks to the requirements of some of their customer base. They have Gazelles (which they are phasing out), a Foxbat ( which I believe they are getting more of to replace the Gazelles), and an RAA registered Cessna 162.

 

I believe that Tooradin have Jab's (160 and 170) if you want to stay with the Jab's

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

Cheers,

 

Joe

Thanks Joe. its not too bad at $199 an hour dual, which is something I have found that even the other schools at coldstream, lilydale etc.. have a hard time matching.

 

I do like the foxbats, but tyabb each sunday is a bit too far for me. I have flown down to tooradin for my CTAF lessons before.

 

If only Essendon wasnt so expensive as its just around the corner. :)

 

Id prefer not to fly jab's as its like learning to drive in a 1980's hyundai.. hehe but its just what the schools have

 

 

[gareth lacey]

Jeffd the instructor in question after the 2nd lesson in an unfamiliar plane did not make allowances for that , i had previously flown only Cessna,s totally different and heavier ,after complaints to the CFI was told this had happened before

 

i would not fly with him again to my detriment this cost me more money and the end was not in sight (money hungary) told me that it would take 40 more lessons , I left in disgust and did it all in 10 at a much more professional run school

 

now i am free to fly anytime , and our plane is at the final stage for testing ,lots more flying

 

cheers Gareth

 

 

[speed_racer]

Jeffd the instructor in question after the 2nd lesson in an unfamiliar plane did not make allowances for that , i had previously flown only Cessna,s totally different and heavier ,after complaints to the CFI was told this had happened beforei would not fly with him again to my detriment this cost me more money and the end was not in sight (money hungary) told me that it would take 40 more lessons , I left in disgust and did it all in 10 at a much more professional run school

now i am free to fly anytime , and our plane is at the final stage for testing ,lots more flying

 

cheers Gareth

Good work.. I got the feeling this school might be money hungry as well, so much for the get your pilot cert in 20 hours thing.. im on about 28 to 30 now.. i wish they had the training syllabus up front.

 

if i got abuse from the instructor I would refuse to pay for that lesson.. or if it was light enough I'd just simply tell him to get f***ed. similar to 'f** off you princess' which I have used in the past when the CFI has had 'his' rags... ;)

 

 

[kaz3g]

Y

 

Thanks for your advice guys. I might have a squizz around at some different schools and see what others will offer RA training within moorabbin. I've always been keen to fly a tecnam but it seems as though you have to drive out to horsham or stawell (in VIC) to fly one of those.

You can fly a Tecnam at Coldstream in the Yarra Valley or at Shepparton in the Goulburn Valley...very friendly place Shepparton if you do the trip up here. It is less than 2 hours drive from Melbourne and there are cheap cabins just across the road.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

No problems pots, I agree completely, but when ba info is being given then it needs to be balanced doesn't it? Ie, discussion;). Vref is not approach speed. That the sort of basic info that is not school or Instructor dependent:)How do we check the ASI is reading accurately?

CAO 108.56

 

Kaz

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Is that how you check it?

 

 

[kaz3g]

Is that how you check it?

That's how CASA says they should be checked for operation and accuracy along with other air pressure instruments.

 

I don't blow gobfulls of air into pitot tubes but I do call "airspeed indicating" as it comes up during the takeoff roll, and I check that the vario is showing "up" at the same time as the altimeter is... And I sometimes ask Melbourne radar for an altimeter check when I'm going down to Essendon in between annual inspections.

 

And I even check ground speed against ASI in nil wind using my iPad just 'cause I can, Moz:duck for cover:

 

 

[rdarby]

There are a lot of things being discussed here, and I think the OP may need to reflect on themselves too.

 

Speed, 28 hours isn't so bad, I took a lot longer. You need as long as you need. It is up to your ability to take it all in and demonstrate your ability, not about the school wanting money just because you are over 20 hours. That is a minimum and generally it's youngsters who do it for that.

 

You could not do the later syllabus up front as you didn't know how to control the aircraft then. No point in teaching you about a precautionary landing if you don't even know how to land. The syllabus builds up in layers of knowledge and ability.

 

Regarding the brake fluid, I think that you need to discuss with your next school if they will teach you about the whole aircraft and how it works, or you need to figure it out yourself. You have brakes, you should therefore know that brake fluid is involved, so of course you should check it. Now if you are like me and need to learn about mechanical things from scratch, then you need to question the school on why they didn't detect you don't know these things and teach them to you. But if you don't know something, find it out.

 

At the end of the day do what you think is right. Don't ask others. You are the PIC of the plane and your life, so if you don't like that school then move. If the plane feels wrong them don't take off.