Should I change flight schools? concern of maintenance & plane safety

[Keenaviator]

Thanks for your advice guys. I might have a squizz around at some different schools and see what others will offer RA training within moorabbin. I've always been keen to fly a tecnam but it seems as though you have to drive out to horsham or stawell (in VIC) to fly one of those.

A couple of things said in your posts concern me a bit speedy - 'the brakes worked during taxi' followed by 'there was no brake fluid at all'. Then you go on to say you used all the runway at Moorabin on landing - you may need some remedial work on landing speeds because from memory Moorabin's runways are pretty long. Laurie

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Sorry if i sounded bitchy, but any instructor would read the comments you have made and come to a similar conclusion.

 

 

[speed_racer]

A couple of things said in your posts concern me a bit speedy - 'the brakes worked during taxi' followed by 'there was no brake fluid at all'. Then you go on to say you used all the runway at Moorabin on landing - you may need some remedial work on landing speeds because from memory Moorabin's runways are pretty long. Laurie

To follow on in further detail, I used full flap configuration and my approach speed was just on 60 knots, I landed way before the piano keys but found it was only safe to try and turn at the very end of the runway, I possibly could of made the last taxi turn off but didnt incase i rolled it..

 

In any other day I have done this, I would of been able to pull up on the piano keys but the crosswind turned to a tailwind which meant my IAS was a lot faster ground speed.. But why am i telling you this.. your an experienced pilot and would be able to make that call on your own wouldnt you? ;)

 

 

[facthunter]

IF your engine idle speed is a bit high on a Jab on tarmac it will roll forever, particularly with a downwind. Nev

 

 

[speed_racer]

Speed_racer,It comes down to if you are happy to pay for the services that they are providing. I suspect that if you are flying from Moorabbin, then you will be paying a premium for that service. Depending on where you are located around Melbourne, there are places like Ballarat, Coldstream, Tyabb and Tooradin who provide RAA training, at what I would expect a more competitive price than a Moorabbin school, plus you would spend more time each flight in the air, rather than on the ground taxing.

I fly out of Tyabb from the Peninsula Aero Club. They do both RAA and GA training, and all of their RAA aircraft are maintained to GA standards thanks to the requirements of some of their customer base. They have Gazelles (which they are phasing out), a Foxbat ( which I believe they are getting more of to replace the Gazelles), and an RAA registered Cessna 162.

 

I believe that Tooradin have Jab's (160 and 170) if you want to stay with the Jab's

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

Cheers,

 

Joe

Hey Joe,

 

Thanks for that. That sounds great. Its a bit more of a hike from the city but certainly worth looking into. I had the opportunity to fly a foxbat and loved it. Felt more like a cessna i flew on a trial as it had the wheel.

 

Cheers,

 

Troy

 

 

[turboplanner]

What this sounds like is quite a strong tail wind, and some inadvertent throttle; the average Jab brakes would have been overcome by this, and if you were working the lever hard all the way down the runway a seal may have burst, letting oil escape.

 

A C150/152 can do a full stop landing on those piano keys with brakes, and landing into wind I'd expect a Jab to be able to get off at the first or second exit without using brakes.

 

 

[speed_racer]

What this sounds like is quite a strong tail wind, and some inadvertent throttle; the average Jab brakes would have been overcome by this, and if you were working the lever hard all the way down the runway a seal may have burst, letting oil escape.A C150/152 can do a full stop landing on those piano keys with brakes, and landing into wind I'd expect a Jab to be able to get off at the first or second exit without using brakes.

The throttle was on idle which that plane was around 1100-1200 rpm... I noticed the brakes didn't pump up on the downwind checks, hence why i asked for a stop and go (with one stage of flaps and after 5 touch and go's) tried to stop but couldn't so i used that as an exercise to see how I would go on a full stop. Anyway next one round was a full stop without brakes, 2 stages of flap, 60knot descend speed, tailwind and a little balloon to almost stall it just before touch down. I think i executed it pretty well considering...

 

Because the plane was an old POS andthat the tower was warned after my pre solo check that if I didn't respond on the radio it was because there was an issue with the radio but they replaced wiring and they think that should of fixed it, I asked if one of the newer planes was available as i dropped the CFI off, and he said they might be back but do your solo in this plane as you were just checked in it..

 

Anyway the master cylinder was empty when i checked it after landing and stopping on the grass in front of the clubhouse. So a lesson learnt there..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Speedy..Some things are starting to ring alarm bells. Is 60 kts your normal approach speed? Do you normally approach using one stage of flap only?

 

How many touch and goes did you do after realising you had no brakes?

 

 

[Keenaviator]

To follow on in further detail, I used full flap configuration and my approach speed was just on 60 knots, I landed way before the piano keys but found it was only safe to try and turn at the very end of the runway, I possibly could of made the last taxi turn off but didnt incase i rolled it..In any other day I have done this, I would of been able to pull up on the piano keys but the crosswind turned to a tailwind which meant my IAS was a lot faster ground speed.. But why am i telling you this.. your an experienced pilot and would be able to make that call on your own wouldnt you? ;)

A tail wind and high idle speed will certainly complicate things for you. Your landing roll could be reduced under these circumstances by switching the engine off - that will stop the thrust. Doing this saved me once in a trike :)

Laurie

 

 

[speed_racer]

Speedy..Some things are starting to ring alarm bells. Is 60 kts your normal approach speed? Do you normally approach using one stage of flap only?How many touch and goes did you do after realising you had no brakes?

No I normally land with 1 stage and usually approach at 75kts, but given the fact I had full flap (2 stage), I wanted my approach speed as low as possible..

 

1 touch and go because initially when I asked for a stop and go, my request was denied as a piper was approaching behind me.

 

 

[speed_racer]

A tail wind and high idle speed will certainly complicate things for you. Your landing roll could be reduced under these circumstances by switching the engine off - that will stop the thrust. Doing this saved me once in a trike :)Laurie

Thanks for that, you would only switch off once ur wheels touch down though right? Or before it?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok. This is where you could get into problems. Even with full flap, 60 kt appch speed is too slow in a 160. The POH states 63 as VREF at 50 ft, which is a speed you would use for the shortest possible landing and I would add, only in good conditions as the decent rate under 65 in a 160 is more like an express elevator.

 

In order to do a proper short field landing (which it seems you were attempting) you need to use power, or else its not a short fielder, but rather a slow glide approach which is NOT the go. In a well executed short fielder the power is used to 1. Lower the stalling speed, and 2. provide some extra airflow over the inboard wing sections, and also give you some more authority in pitch and yaw.

 

The 160 will bite you if you allow the speed to decay below 65 kts on approach ( for a normal power off approach).

 

Also, the tower cant tell you takeoff. If you need to stop then you stop. Answer questions later, they can make the proceeding traffic go around. If its a matter of safety, then you do what YOU think is right, inform them of what your doing and the reasons why.:?)

 

Cheers

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well this story is going on, but at least it would appear that with 17L/35R at 3,820', he holds the all time landing roll record for a Jab.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Thanks for that, you would only switch off once ur wheels touch down though right? Or before it?

Definitely after landing - when you realise you're not slowing at the rate you'd expect. Anyway it sounds like Merve has a heap of experience in the J160. I don't. My Jabiru experience is limited to an SP6.

Laurie.

 

 

[poteroo]

Ok. This is where you could get into problems. Even with full flap, 60 kt appch speed is too slow in a 160. The POH states 63 as VREF at 50 ft, which is a speed you would use for the shortest possible landing and I would add, only in good conditions as the decent rate under 65 in a 160 is more like an express elevator.In order to do a proper short field landing (which it seems you were attempting) you need to use power, or else its not a short fielder, but rather a slow glide approach which is NOT the go. In a well executed short fielder the power is used to 1. Lower the stalling speed, and 2. provide some extra airflow over the inboard wing sections, and also give you some more authority in pitch and yaw.

The 160 will bite you if you allow the speed to decay below 65 kts on approach ( for a normal power off approach).

 

Also, the tower cant tell you takeoff. If you need to stop then you stop. Answer questions later, they can make the proceeding traffic go around. If its a matter of safety, then you do what YOU think is right, inform them of what your doing and the reasons why.:?)

 

Cheers

Speed racer, are you holding off until the aircraft has fully stalled? You should be touching down at no faster than 45 kts - with a lot of aerodynamic drag from your nose high attitude. You shouldn't roll any further than 200-300m provided the engine is properly set to idle at no faster than 1000 rpm. Brakes become usable only after the nosewheel touches down, which is usually < 40 kts, and at that speed they are usually quite effective.

 

As for your half flap approaches - 75 is probably a bit fast - we use about 67-68 in our 160, and 63-65 with full flap and some power for full flap approaches. At a busy secondary airport, there is a tendency for students to be influenced to fly approaches fast enough to stay ahead of other, heavier traffic - a bad training example, but one which ATC don't necessarily think about.

 

happy days,

 

 

[motzartmerv]

yes. Agreed. 75 is too fast. I hate to give hands on flying advice to students on this site, however in this case I think perhaps some things have been overlooked in your training and offer only 'advice' that you should discuss with your Instructor.

 

Cheers and good luck

 

 

[coljones]

To follow on in further detail, I used full flap configuration and my approach speed was just on 60 knots, I landed way before the piano keys but found it was only safe to try and turn at the very end of the runway, I possibly could of made the last taxi turn off but didnt incase i rolled it..In any other day I have done this, I would of been able to pull up on the piano keys but the crosswind turned to a tailwind which meant my IAS was a lot faster ground speed.. But why am i telling you this.. your an experienced pilot and would be able to make that call on your own wouldnt you? ;)

Is your landing reference point the piano keys or numbers at the BEGINNING or the OTHER END of the strip? Aiming beyond and landing too far after the first set of keys is not recommended as you might go to a short strip and what was OK on a long strip can become fraught on anything smaller. Landing close to the first set of keys gives you max landing and rolling distances.

Does your school have the aircraft manual on hand or in the plane? - have you read the PILOT'S OPERATING HANDBOOK & APPROVED FLIGHT MANUAL? They are supposed to be in the plane. There is some interesting info in there including operational limits and emergency procedures recommended by the manufacturer There is nothing about checking brake fluid before flights but there is nothing to stop you including it in your preflight checks - but be aware that getting dirt and water vapour into the hydraulics is frownable. You can download a copy from the Jabiru site. Print off your own copy, compare it to the one for the plane and keep it along with annotations.

 

Enjoy!!

 

 

[DWF]

Speed racer, are you holding off until the aircraft has fully stalled? You should be touching down at no faster than 45 kts - with a lot of aerodynamic drag from your nose high attitude. You shouldn't roll any further than 200-300m provided the engine is properly set to idle at no faster than 1000 rpm. Brakes become usable only after the nosewheel touches down, which is usually < 40 kts, and at that speed they are usually quite effective.As for your half flap approaches - 75 is probably a bit fast - we use about 67-68 in our 160, and 63-65 with full flap and some power for full flap approaches. At a busy secondary airport, there is a tendency for students to be influenced to fly approaches fast enough to stay ahead of other, heavier traffic - a bad training example, but one which ATC don't necessarily think about.

 

happy days,

I agree with Poteroo.

 

I have a lot of time in a J120C but not much in a J160 so I cannot comment about that aircraft specifically, however....

 

 

 

POH figures are given for the aircraft at MTOW. The configuration of the aircraft in question was one POB and (guessing) fuel at about half tanks making the actual weight at the time about 100Kg below MTOW. This decreases the stall speed and hence the appropriate Vref, so 60kts with full flap on short final is probably OK.

 

 

 

For a short field landing if you touch down and the stall warning is not going you are too fast.

 

 

 

The pilot in command of an aircraft is responsible for the safety of the aircraft. If the PIC has an abnormal or emergency situation s/he should take whatever action they consider necessary to ensure a safe outcome. At a controlled aerodrome tell he controller you have a problem and what action you are taking. They will sort out the other traffic and take whatever other steps (like alerting emergency services) necessary - that is what they get paid the big money for. If there is downwind on the duty runway I would consider asking for an into wind landing even if it does mess up their traffic flow.

 

 

 

DWF (SI and ex ATC)

 

 

[turboplanner]

One big question is what were the tower people doing if the wind was cross wind then downwind..........Moorabbin is one of the places where you can fly into wind most of the time.

 

 

[facthunter]

Downwinds are a bad idea generally, made worse if there is a crosswind as well.. Jabs damage nosewheels and don't steer well if there is a lot of weight on them. Land on the back of the wheels and keep the weight OFF the nosewheel.

 

IF you float excessively you are too fast. If it falls out of the sky you WERE too slow. A precautionary or lowest speed approach should be a bit lower, use all flap and a powered approach.

 

IF your idle speed is too high CUT the motor if you have to, once you know you are committed to landing the thing. IF you are going to go into a fence turn into wind just before it happens.. These are the main points I can think of. Much of this has been previously suggested. Nev

 

 

[Halden Boyd]

Hi all,I'm writing this post to ask for your fellow pilots advice..

 

I have done 28 hours of flying with 0.5 hours left to complete my solo circuits. I thought this is what I had left to get my solo certificate for my RA licence. However I have been advised by the CFI that I still need to do my training syllabus of prac search and landing, advanced stalls and short field take off and landings. (i have done short field so i need to discuss that with them)

 

My problems I have came across are..

 

1. While flying a jabiru J160 (late model) We had a rough running engine while taking off after a glide approach and had to call stopping and put it down on the remaining runway. That was a throughbolt issue with the engine which required a rebuild.

 

2. While flying solo in the same aircraft a few weeks later I experienced something similar during a touch and go and landed on the remaining runway. This grounded the plane was put down to carby icing and later was advised the planes were running lean and are now richer so only to turn on carby heat when below 2800rpm on base before final and only throttle slowly with 5 to 10 seconds between idle and full rpm during take off.

 

3. Last weekend I was given one of their older planes and after a pre solo check, I went solo to find during downwind, the brakes didn't pump up as expected, I asked for a stop and go which confirmed while on the ground I had no brakes, so next one i advised the tower of the problem and used full flaps and used every bit of runway hoping to not hit the fence, I successfully landed and slowed it down enough by the end to taxi to the apron. It turned out there was no brake fluid left, during my pre flight checks I did not see any leak from the calipers as they are parked on grass. The CFI's excuse was oh that happens all the time, especially during summer because people ride the brakes and they fade away, I told him its no excuse and brake fade is usually pumped out during the downwind component of the circuit.

 

As a new pilot, this all seems concerning, so my question is, am i being paranoid or should I use a different flying school at moorabbin?[/quote

 

I agree with ayavner.

 

It is your call. Safety is paramount........it is your call.

New

I agree with ayavner.

 

Safety is paramount.

 

Do they have an alternative aircraft for you to fly until this is sorted as there is obviously an engine issue which needs to be seriously looked at?

 

If you have only .5 t go before solo I would be looking elsewhere until they get it sorted. Aslo a new school and CFI might pick up on a few new skills you might need to look at and hone in on.

 

I applaud you for posting your concerns.

 

It is your call speed_racer

 

Happy Landings.....Halden Boyd

 

 

[motzartmerv]

60 kts appch speed in a 160 is NoT acceptable. How much does the reduction In weight reduce the stall speed? If we are going to give hands on advice to students can we please watch what we say. Vref is not the appch speed. Not in any aircraft!! Let alone the 160 with its wing loading.

 

Add to the equation a tailwind, low time, a perceived issue with brakes causing distraction, tower giving pressure... Recipe for disaster. Please, students flying te 160 talk to your instructor before attempting a 60 kt approach. I can't stress this enough.

 

 

[facthunter]

I agree with Merv as to using precise speeds from a source such as here. The "perfect" speed varies depending on conditions etc. If it is gusting you need a few more knots. If it is light you might be able to take a couple off. You can tell if you are too fast. Your hold off will be too long and you FLOAT too far and you will use too much runway. IF you are too slow it will be harder to control and may drop out of the sky and you catch it with back stick and/or a bit of power . Obviously the latter situation is the more hazardous, particularly for a low hours pilot and in a Jab and should be avoided until you have done precautionary landings and become proficient in them. For the last 100 feet or so you won't be looking at the Airspeed indicator much. You will be flying on attitude and feel. nev

 

 

[poteroo]

60 kts appch speed in a 160 is NoT acceptable. How much does the reduction In weight reduce the stall speed? If we are going to give hands on advice to students can we please watch what we say. Vref is not the appch speed. Not in any aircraft!! Let alone the 160 with its wing loading.Add to the equation a tailwind, low time, a perceived issue with brakes causing distraction, tower giving pressure... Recipe for disaster. Please, students flying te 160 talk to your instructor before attempting a 60 kt approach. I can't stress this enough.

This is a forum Merv, and it's a place for discussion about flying. I don't think low time students are going to slavishly follow every comment that's made here, especially as they are aware that it's a discussion between pilots - not instructors. We need full and open discussion, remembering that the POH is the law.....not what your instructor tells you - if that is different to the POH.

 

In any case, before anything else - make sure that your aircraft has it's ASI checked for accuracy. In recent times I've flown a few where the analog ASI is over-reading by anything up to 5 kts. That makes quite a difference to your margins.

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

All pilots should be able to do a circuit safely, without an operating ASI in a basic light aircraft . Nev