Is Accident Prevention Guaranteed ?

[Guest john]

It is noted that CASA have released the recent penalties dished out to Pilots of RAA on the Members Portal site. If CASA & RAA are so concerned with SAFETY, what are they doing about it to prevent these ongoing breaches of the CAR's. The probable solution once & for all might be for these Beaureaucratic organisations to take up the following "EXPERTS" opinions.

 

1.A qualified & intelligent Paramedic stated recently stated that all accidents are preventable.

 

2. A previous employee of RAA stated in a previous RAA magazine the following details:"Well the answer is that all accidents, fatal or not , are preventable in some way shape or form.

 

What a load of bull----, as long as my a-se points to the ground , & aviation exists there will always be unfortunate accidents & fatalities. The only 100% guaranteed solution to this issue is to ground all aircraft worldwide indefinitely, which is neither practical nor acceptable to the majority of the worldwide population.

 

There is an old saying in aviation circles worldwide as follows: We have never left anybody up there yet.

 

It is apparent that the beaureaucrats in CASA & RAA are attempting to create a perfect world within aviation, which will never occurr.

 

 

[facthunter]

Statistically a at any point in time accidents occur at a fairly constant rate, in relation to some activity. The larger the number the more constant the result, Where conditions don't alter.

 

If ANY accident is examined thoroughly it will emerge if, xy and z had been done , the accident would not have happened. most accidents in aviation are caused by a combination of factors rarely just one. Even if a wing spar breaks there will be a number of reasons why.

 

It gets back to how much improvement for how many dollars. You should attack the areas where you dollar is most effective first. Logically.

 

You AIM for NO accidents but they will ALWAYS happen. It's to do with probability. Over 2,000 people suicide in Australia each year. More than the road toll. If you make it hard for people to do things they want to do there might be more suicides.

 

It wouldn't be drawing too long a bow to imagine that If CASA grounded all U/L activity there might be from 10,000 people 10 or more suicides occur. Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

long as my a-se points to the ground , & aviation exists there will always be unfortunate accidents

Unfortunately that's not how they see it

 

Well the answer is that all accidents, fatal or not , are preventable in some way shape or form.

That is more like how they see it. A safe aircraft is one in the hanger, unless your work cover then it's a hazard to the LAME.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

....... If CASA grounded all U/L activity there might be ......... 10 or more suicides ......

.... and more than likely a murder or two ...

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I agree with Facthunter. Aviation is a part of my life, and by no means the most dangerous. I had no idea there were so many suicides and these are few compared with the mortality effects of overweight. It is twice as dangerous to be 5kg overweight as it is to fly.

 

There is a famous quote from Benjamin Franklin.... "those who would give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

 

Well we have given up nearly all our aviation liberties. Power resides in the hands of officials, many of them overweight, who can enjoy bullying and pretend that they are doing it for our own good. And its not only aviation, there are even worse examples out there. All I can suggest is we should blame our local members.

 

...Bruce

 

 

[ben87r]

Wonder how many from CASA ride their sports bike on the weekend to unwind..

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

1.A qualified & intelligent Paramedic stated recently stated that all accidents are preventable.

2. A previous employee of RAA stated in a previous RAA magazine the following details:"Well the answer is that all accidents, fatal or not , are preventable in some way shape or form.

These statements don't contradict your assertion that "as long as aviation exists ... there will always be unfortunate accidents & fatalities". Saying that all accidents could have been prevented isn't the same as saying that zero accidents is achievable.

 

Pretty much all accidents ARE preventable but I'd be very interested if you can point to any that aren't.

 

Even if it is accepted that zero accidents is probably an unrealistic aspiration, I don't think there is much argument that the recent RAAus record leaves a lot of room for improvement

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[farri]

Worker fatalities

 

As at 3 September 2013, 112 Australian workers have been killed while at work.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

Most of them in construction work I bet where standards are being pushed downwards for more profit. China acknowledges 10,000 plus in the coal mines. The real figure is supposed to be much higher. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Point being, I reckon you could say all those workplace accidents could have been preventable. However! they did occured.

 

Frank.

 

 

[winsor68]

Th

 

Point being, I reckon you could say all those workplace accidents could have been preventable. However! they did occured.Frank.

They all occured...none were "accidents" in the literal sense of the word. All were preventable.

I agree we won't logically achieve 100% safety but to not try is criminal in my books. How would you feel sending your kids to work for an employer whose policy was to accept a fatality on his workplace as normal...

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Far as I am concern your safety is in your control but we all make mistakes No mater what u do fly ,work ,drive, play sports ,walk , but some times control over your own destiny is not in your own hands others can change it for others So to say that we can have an acindent free world is a load of bull it will never happen ! And no policy will never prevent the same because everyone reads these and see them differently to u or I Him or she People are always going to throw a spanner in the works. ........

 

 

[Downunder]

The aim is to achieve zero accidents. It may never happen but that goal is needed to motivate and move forward.

 

The "swiss cheese model" (google it) is a concept where by a number of factors contribute to an accident.

 

Remove just one of these and the incident does not happen.

 

When things start to go wrong for you, ask yourself "are the holes starting to line up?"

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Maybe not today but tomorrow some one has to see the holes people see hole differently ????

 

 

[M61A1]

Most of them in construction work I bet where standards are being pushed downwards for more profit. China acknowledges 10,000 plus in the coal mines. The real figure is supposed to be much higher. Nev

Having worked in construction, I would have to disagree in regard to the standards being pushed lower. Over the 12 years I was in the industry, standards got tighter and tighter, more training, more regulation, currently it's at the point of ridiculous.I don' believe for one moment that it has created any more safety, dumb people still kill and injure themselves in the traditional ways, legislation has made it so that you must sack an intelligent worker whe refuses to follow rubbish policy, but attempt to retrain and educate the un-educatable. Ultimately they never learn, and if you're lucky, they will only kill themselves. The same, I believe, applies to our roads, and unfortunately aviation. There are people out there who just do not, regardless of education, seem to understand that doing certain things can bite you hard.

As for sending your kids off to work, if you've raised them right, they'll understand what's dangerous or not, I certainly wouldn't leave it up to govt regulation to ensure that they understand that some things will hurt them.

 

I personally think zero incidents is a good goal, in fact I try to achieve it every day. I doubt , however that it will ever be achieved, especially through inflexible legislation that does not encourage you to think for yourself, and take responsibility for your own safety, that includes doing everything you can not to taken out by one of the residents of the "shallow end" of the gene pool.

 

 

[farri]

M61A1, I agree and couldn`t have said it better.

 

I posted the workplace fatalities to demonstrate that there are strict workplace health and safety standards already in place and regardles of the ever increasing regulations and standards, the accidents are still occuring.

 

Our eldest daughter and her family have just got back home from a holiday in America. At the Grand Canyon my son-inlaw was supprised that there were no safety guard rails where he was. He spoke to a ranger who told him that at another site where they had put guard rails, there had been 11 fatalities. People were going beyond the rails.

 

I continue to believe in personal responsibility. I taught that to my children and I teach it to my grand children. I want them to be able to think for themselves, regardles of what they are doing.

 

Education is the way forward, not regulation.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

Education NOT regulation has my support too. (It has always been my view) Whether safety is improving or getting worse depends on where you are sitting, and what equipment you are operating and in what environment. In air transport I have NO doubt the improvement in safety is due to using Jet engines rather than pistons. Cockpit organisation has a lot to do with it also. Medical procedures and surgery in operating theatres is being encouraged to copy resource management and checklists that aviation uses. There is a System that should be the safest possible and there are individual attitudes to safety that count as well. A safety "culture". The system should include effective feed back so improvement can be obtained to ensure NO ambiguity or confusion also.. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

I think that some of the issue within industry here in Australia, has a lot to do with the process based way in which they do things......meaning that issues must be reported (no problem), but then they must be seen to have done something. Most businesses will then do something that makes it look as though something has been done, but without really addressing the issue (remember, they won't sack genuine idiots for fear of wrongful dismissal lawsuits), they usually just add the further complication with another layer of process, and still not make a positive difference.

 

I can still hear the words from almost every manager I've ever worked for "we have to be seen to be doing something".

 

I recall an interview with one of the engineers about the management of the dams around Brisbane in relation to the floods. When the issue of the "manual" was raised, the response was along the line of " yes, we had a manual, but it was only there to fill the requirement of having a manual, we never expected it to actually be used".

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Of course all accidents are preventable. But only in hindsight.

 

 

[facthunter]

M61A1 Window dressing is alive and well. SMS's anyone? They could be good but I often feel they are a way of covering the @r$e of those at the top.. Rules are written for the lowest common denominator. ( the fool who should not even be there). nev

 

 

[ahlocks]

Rules are written for the lowest common denominator. ( the fool who should not even be there).

The cottonwool set have a thing about propagating the idiot gene for some inane reason.

 

 

[DWF]

Is Accident Prevention Guaranteed?

 

I think the short answer is NO.

 

 

 

Lets take the Swiss cheese analogy ....

 

 

 

If you only have one piece of 'Swiss cheese' and an event passes through one of the holes you have an accident.

 

So you add more pieces of 'Swiss cheese' [by adding rules, procedures, etc]... but some of the holes sometimes still line up and an event passing through will still result in an accident.

 

To make it even safer you add more slices of 'Swiss cheese' but there is still the possibility of holes lining up and an accident occurring.

 

If you take away a slice of 'Swiss cheese' [by not obeying a rule or procedure] you increase the chances of an accident occurring.

 

 

 

It gets to the stage where two things happen:

 

1. You get so many slices of 'Swiss cheese' that the whole thing becomes too unwieldy, possibly making extra holes in the cheese slices and increasing the chance of things going wrong.

 

2. The cost of the next extra slice 'Swiss cheese' becomes so expensive it outweighs the benefit it claims to provide. So it does not get done.

 

Is this Dick Smith's "affordable safety"?

 

 

 

In any accident there are usually a number of events which, if any one of them was stopped or altered, would have prevented the accident.

 

Unfortunately humans are involved in all these events.

 

Humans all make mistakes (to a greater or lesser degree).

 

Rules, procedures, training and attitude can reduce accidents.

 

Disregard for rules and procedures, poor training and attitude increase the chance of an accident.

 

 

 

Until humans become perfect (make no mistakes) or are removed from the system altogether, accidents will continue to occur.

 

We should still try for a zero accident rate but I think the best we can hope for is to get and keep the rate acceptably low.

 

What is an "acceptably low" rate is another matter.......

 

 

 

DWF

 

 

[M61A1]

There are two ways of dealing with problems using the "Swiss cheese" model, you can add another layer of "cheese", or, you can use less layers of better quality "cheese". In a CASA article, they have a preference for less layers and better quality.

 

 

[DWF]

There are two ways of dealing with problems using the "Swiss cheese" model, you can add another layer of "cheese", or, you can use less layers of better quality "cheese". In a CASA article, they have a preference for less layers and better quality.

Always use the best quality cheese if you can ..... but it is usually more expensive.

 

And it will still have holes in it!

 

 

[paulh]

I agree with M61A1 statements about safety on construction sites, which can apply to other areas of life - as a project manager for civil construction the legislation ends up pointing at people like me if someone hurts themselves - so the natural consequence is to protect myself and avoid fines or jail for negligence etc so we ensure that we do the best we can not just to keep the WHS& S inspector happy but so everyone goes home at the end of the work day - yes some of the requirements are excessive and costly to implement but again, the aim is all the blokes go home at the end of the day, and I happen to like the fellas who drive graders and excavators etc and happy to see their ugly mugs in the mornings. (Well most of them)

 

We can all complain about excess safety requirements together with all the other bureaucracy we have to endure, but having had some very bad experiences with fatal and serious incidents on construction sites I have no sense of humour about safety culture - work on my site in a safe manner and go home to your family without injury or don't bother turning up.

 

Yep this is not aviation but the underlying principles about managing the task in a safe manner are the same - planning, risk analysis, implementing control measures, assessing effectiveness etc

 

cowboys who do stupid things just make it harder for the rest us reasonable people!!!