RAAus Future

[fly_tornado]

Thanks. Private transport between several places. It just seems like this whole RAA bizzo is all going to come crashing down and we'll have a graveyard full of planes and pilot certificates... Unless I'm reading into it wrong.

The RAA suffer from the "chicken little" style of management, you can read about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny

 

I prefer to think of the RAA like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dad's_Army

 

Who do you think you are kidding Mr. McCormick,

 

If you think we're on the run?

 

We are the boys who will stop your little game.

 

We are the boys who will make you think again.

 

'Cause who do you think you are kidding Mr. McCormick,

 

If you think the RAA's done?

 

Mr. Herring goes off to town on the eight twenty-one,

 

But he comes home each evening and he's ready with his ultimateum.

 

So who do you think you are kidding Mr. McCormick,

 

If you think the RAA's done?

 

 

[DWF]

I gather this thread is about the content of Rod Birrell's President's Report.

 

I have not received my September Sports Mag yet so don't know what he has said and what you guys are talking about.

 

Very frustrating!

 

 

 

DWF

 

 

[Guernsey]

Mistakes made in the past can be a good learning curve sometimes.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Teckair]

I gather this thread is about the content of Rod Birrell's President's Report.

I have not received my September Sports Mag yet so don't know what he has said and what you guys are talking about.

 

Very frustrating!

 

 

 

DWF

RAAus stopped sending the mag to me after a while I rang up and they had some how changed my postal address during their procedures.

 

 

[rankamateur]

What you're reading is a whole lot of speculation. I wouldn't be making any important decisions based on it's content.

I read all the speculation, did my training still with one eye on what was still happening at the end of last year, realised none of us can afford to wait for ever, and I am a young one of us at 47, bought a kit , engine and propellor and started building. You are never going to feel any younger than you feel today!

 

 

[dazza 38]

I am still out in the bush at work and will be flying home tomorrow . Sounds like I have a bit to read in the sports pilots mag when I get home.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

I am lucky that I weight 68 kgs on visiting some schools when some of the learners were close to 100 kgs or more my estimation they needed a weight increase to accomadate these over weight persons

Nah, that's normal and you are underweight Neil! An ultralight kinda guy; try a big bowl of porridge each day, get your wing loading up a bit...

 

 

[storchy neil]

get your wing loading up a bit... :wink:yeh g g flying up to Darwin in storch had to fill my pockets full of stones :im stupid:some of the lifts up there were breath taking neil

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Hi,

 

I too am confused, I don't subscribe to this magazine. I only just asked last week what folks thought of the future of RAA and whether I should continue with my training. Now, without any 'hard data' I am a little concerned. Can anyone provide specifics of what the Pres/GM has stated in the mag and whether it explicitly states anything about the subordination/demise of RAA certification back into CASA?

 

Thanks

 

Rich

 

 

[pylon500]

OK, fire-suit on...., here's my take on the whole deal;

 

Weights; We thought we were doing alright when we went from 480kg to 544kg.

 

600kg is plenty.

 

If you can't build a decent two seater under 600kg, you shouldn't be building production aeroplanes!

 

Remember, many of the hot ships that used to come from Europe did so at 450kg!

 

Travelling; The majority of us are flying for fun.

 

That's not to say we don't want to do trips, BUT, most of us do trips FOR THE TRIP, not to get to a destination.

 

The old adage 'Time to spare, go by Air', is just as true today as in the past, probably more so.

 

The reality is, if you want to travel less than 400km, drive your car.

 

You will get there, you can be overweigh (figuratively), you will have transport when you get there, and you will get back, all within the timeframe you plan for.

 

If you want to travel further than 500km, buy an airline ticket.

 

You will get there, you may have to pay for extra weight, you may have to hire transport when you get there, and you will get back, all within the timeframe you plan for.

 

Ultralights are NOT made for travelling.

 

Even GA is impractical most of the time.

 

You may not get there, you wont be able to carry much, you will have to hire transport when you get there, and you may not get back, plus it will probably cost you at least twice the price of the first two options.

 

LSA's; With the introduction of LSA, we took about a fifteen year step BACKWARD by allowing the old (can't pass medical) GA pilots to join us, who then wanted all the privileges they had with their old hot ships.

 

Did they thinking that CASA wouldn't then turn around and apply the same amount of regulation to all of us because of it?

 

Before LSA, we were operating on exemptions, which kept costs down, but allowed advancement.

 

Those that could afford fancy machines could buy constant speed retractables, that fit the European standards, and rightly show off.

 

The rest of us bought or built what we could afford, and simply enjoyed getting into the air.

 

Local manufacturers managed to stay close to the weights allowed, although 600kg would be nice.

 

After LSA, and I mean when CASA just copied the American rules, we are having questions about variable props and retractable gear, which are not allowed in America, BUT, unlike America, CASA still wanted the final authority on Airworthiness!?

 

OK, two things here, many of the manufacturers (worldwide) have proven they weren't up to the task of complying with the LSA rules and standards;

 

and;

 

I believe CASA overlooked (as did Steve Bell) to write in an exemption against Special CofA's, for LSA aircraft aimed for registration as ultralights.

 

Not that they will admit to that now.

 

So, where to go?

 

No, we DON'T want the training for RPL.

 

Nor do we want the heavier aircraft that fit this class, or the more over regulation that goes with it.

 

GA has struggled over the years to keep up with CASA rearranging the goal posts, so GA is ready for it, as are the GA flying schools that are beginning to realise they are not going to survive just trying to pump out airline pilots.

 

They can look after the 'family' pilots and the private business pilots.

 

Yes, I know that sounds like I'm contradicting my previous comments but, I have an example here in Taree of a guy with his own business and a contract in Bairnsdale Victoria, 1036km by road, 766km direct.

 

Taking airlines (and buses), takes him all day.

 

Driving, takes him all day.

 

Flying his $250k Trinidad, he can do it in under 4 hours, MOST OF THE TIME, but he doesn't always make it! (no, he's not IFR yet, got a business to run).

 

Some people can afford this option.

 

We need to step back to recreational flying, flying for fun, dare I say 'Ultralight' flying?

 

We need to maintain training for safe recreational flying.

 

We need to keep aircraft approval (not certification) and maintenance, at affordable costs.

 

We need to agree that we are, in a way, an adventure sport, and insure as such.

 

We need to have CLUBS, more so than schools, where members can share their abilities and be overseen by volunteer skilled people.

 

What happened to the days of clubs building their own flying machines?

 

What changed in the 60's?

 

We can still be a cheap stepping stone to further flying for those who want that, but also a place for those that just want to get into the sky.....

 

We need to reinvent ourselves, how about we call ourselves the Australian Ultralight Federation

 

 

[frank marriott]

Pylon

 

I take it you would also be happy with a 500ft limit, not flying over built up areas/highways, and private unregistered airstrips only. A membership of 1000 possibly. Best of luck. If you think bringing back restrictions will remove regulation in 2013 again best of luck - You can't even ride a bicycle these days without a helmet.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

At our club we have SAAA, RAA, GA and Warbirders. All of us get along well and have the same aims, to go for a fly for an hour or two each weekend and a trip every few months. The difference is the type of aeroplane we like to fly. That is influenced by whether we like hands-on building, big noisy engines, fast, aerobatic, or quiet, low-cost machines. The people are the same. There seems no reason why the rules should be different for any of us once we are in the air. The rules just put us into categories by speed, weight etc. with some flexibility on maintenance that reflects the complexity of the aircraft.

 

 

[pylon500]

Yes, it's a dilemma trying to find balance and direction with some organisations.

 

Don't get me wrong, as a former aero modeller, hang glider and glider pilot, as well as a retired GA and ex military mechanic, I've had exposure to a wide range of aviation, and mixed with all of them.

 

I don't really begrudge any of the various fields of aviation, but all these previous fields have their boundaries which defines them.

 

Once we became the 'Recreational' field of flying (even though we can't do aerobatics, fly night VMC, go pylon racing, switch off ours motors and go gliding, experiment with small multi engine homebuilts, use turbine engines, fly small private helicopters,,,, the list goes on) we lost a lot of our definition, but we certainly gained a few more rules, regulations and restrictions!

 

Sure, when I started up with ultralights, we all wanted bigger and faster, just look at my avatar.

 

Although that project has stalled for now, it was an idea to build a fast plane, but staying within the 95:10 rules.

 

Was to be Rotax 503 powered and hoping to start a lighter weight class of pylon racing. One day maybe....?

 

Unfortunately, when we started to get bigger and faster, I could see from my position within GA, where this could end up, and basically it has.....

 

As I said earlier, I think our problems stem from definition, for example, the model guys are building bigger and faster (they actually have more freedom of expression than us), but they know they cannot get INTO their planes.

 

Our definition was to be simple lightweight (inexpensive ?) aircraft capable of two seats, purely for the sake of taking to the air and flying around a local area.

 

That didn't mean we should not be allowed out of our area, I mean, trail bikes are for charging around paddocks and the like, but if you want the adventure (the trip), you could go cross country.

 

Of course if you really wanted to go somewhere on a bike, you got a street bike, but now you follow the road rules, you get licensed, you get registered, and you wonder why you are doing it when you could be comfortable in a car?

 

An interesting sideline here would be to remind everyone that back in the US, under FAR 103, you don't need a license, and you don't need registration.

 

Anybody can fly...!!?

 

Yes, that's CRAZY, and at the same time, we led the WORLD in ultralighting abilities and freedoms until we adopted LSA.

 

So back to my original response, I think we lost our direction when we lost our definition.....ULTRALIGHT !

 

101:55 (original) was a good level, our aircraft were 'approved', I think CASA realised that, like cars, people would do small changes here and there, maybe bigger tyres, add a trim tab maybe, put on a better prop made by a prop manufacturer, not an aircraft manufacturer, add a few more instruments.

 

Little things that if done in a club or school would be overseen by a group of people, one of which hopefully, would be clever enough to look at the real world implications (weight & balance, speed effect, engine load, electrical load, etc),not necessarily the 'legal' hassles, before implementing said mod.

 

This is a different gripe I have, so I will leave that for a later date.

 

 

[Teckair]

All good pylon, except the part about clubs I have been in various clubs over the years and think they do not work. It seems there will always be somebody with an out of control ego who feels their mission in life is to tell everybody else what to do. Then you have those who just want everyone to 'get along' and the end result is not good.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Yes it seems that most clubs need to institute a term limits to stop the alpha male killing the clubs atmosphere

 

 

[facthunter]

I will have to find out what an ALPHA male IS one day. One make clubs seem to have a desire to have the most desireable model predisposition. If there is no BEST thing and we all go into it together with a mix that works best. Just enjoying everybody's company. and variety.

 

Unfortunately with pilots, there seems to be a" hero worship some, and BAG others" competition going on and everyone has some "name" attached to them. It's often not very flattering, and. there will be a self appointed , "ACE of the BASE" somewhere. Nothing's perfect, but flying and EGO seem to go together. Nev

 

 

[slb]

Want to hire a VH registered plane? RPL cheapest option

 

Have a RPL and want to buy a plane? - Has to be VH registered and LAME maintained.

 

Want to maintain your own plane? - has to be RAA

 

... so what's the problem???

 

 

[dazza 38]

Want to hire a VH registered plane? RPL cheapest optionHave a RPL and want to buy a plane? - Has to be VH registered and LAME maintained.

 

Want to maintain your own plane? - has to be RAA

 

... so what's the problem???

If a aircraft is built by the owner and he has completed the SAAA M&P course, he can maintain his own VH registered homebuilt aircraft.

 

 

[slb]

If a aircraft is built by the owner and he has completed the SAAA M&P course, he can maintain his own VH registered homebuilt aircraft.

and Factory built?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The question is, do you trust your skills as a mechanic?

 

 

[pylon500]

and Factory built?

Well this is one of the problems.

With our strive to be a copy of GA, it wont take long that we won't be able to maintain our own personal factory builts.

 

I'm sure that even L2 is going to become harder to obtain, and guess what?, after that, WE'RE GA!

 

 

[facthunter]

And GA doesn't guarantee trouble free maintenance either. A book could be written on this. Owner maintenance has high motivation to do it well. You are riding in it. If you are not up to it, you learn, or get someone who is up to it to do it , or help. Nev

 

 

[Keith Page]

Why do you believe this is necessary Keith ?John

Hi Crezzi

 

Work has been in my way hence the slow reply.

 

The RTO will cover training and the basis for the SMS is taining and education.

 

There is no organisation about which has a base to start a RTO which can educate and develop recreational aviation.

 

How I was looking at the situation RAAus owns the training packages and the trainers would use the RAAus packages to teach, e.g. *TIG welding, wood and fabric construction, Metal work, Composite construction, Engine maintanance, Flight training, Navigation and etc. etc. realy all the things we do now, only in a structured formal way which can be audited.

 

The SMS is not a big deal, as of now we are handing the knowledge along verbally instead under SMS situation the knowledge will be in a documented form and verified by competancy tests.

 

Crezzi.. This is as brief as I can make the explanation with out writing a novel.

 

I can not see how the STCC position is claimed to be small, as I am looking at it, it is huge.

 

We must be visionary and be looking forward at the big picture.

 

Regards

 

Keith Page

 

 

[dazza 38]

and Factory built?

Of course not factory built. I replied to your original post because it was implying that the only way for owners to maintain their aircraft is if it was Raa registered. This is not the case :)

 

 

[DrZoos]

Dont let nostalgia blind you to the realities of the litigious, rule ridden cover your a## society we live in.

 

Unfortunately there are cowboys in every area of society and this includes aviation and RA. This is why over 50% of cpl holders are rejected by the airlines as unsuitable.

 

Just read the thread about the guy wondering whether he should change flight schools after 3 mechanical issues and a CFI telling him not to worry that happens all the time...... unfortunately these d##### bags (the cfi) mean rules have to be strictly stated and followed. Its so less of those idiots die, and thus less of us get tied up in further rules.