Single seat 95-10

[thommo]

Hi

 

How do people think a new 95-10 aircraft kit would go here in Australia. With rising costs of fuel ect are people looking at going back flying rag and tub aircraft?

 

Kit would be around $15k 100hrs assembly time add engine and Instruments fly away.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

At $15k less engine and instruments.....no way. Far too expensive. Get it down to around 8k and it might stand a chance. I personally can't see where that sort of cost would go for a rag and tube kite.

 

 

[Guernsey]

I agree with Deskpilot regarding the final cost, also there is a problem with engines being still available.

 

Alan.

 

 

[aj_richo]

I guess it would depend on if you used commercial grade material i.e. 6063 aluminium tube vs 6061-T6 aircraft grade material

 

If you sourced aircraft grade material locally, or did a bit of importing with the low dollar I could see $15k evaporating fairly quickly for a one-off kit.

 

Economies of scale my produce some savings with larger orders.

 

I built a 95-10 from scratch back late last century 1984-87, mostly local materials for about $5k including $1k for a hardly used Robin 440cc.

 

To build the same aircraft today sans engine I would estimate $10-12k

 

 

[David Isaac]

There are still a few kits available today. The Tyro is one, does anyone know what a Tyro kit costs. You can still buy a quicksilver and there are a few working on local kits. $15 k sans engine and instruments is too high unless it is real special ... Like really high speed as an example.

 

 

[thommo]

I've priced up new skins and it's $3k for them. Then add up all materials.

 

$1k just for a pod plus everything else. Doesn't take long to add up.

 

 

[terryc]

I've priced up new skins and it's $3k for them. Then add up all materials.$1k just for a pod plus everything else. Doesn't take long to add up.

If you contract out each item such as skins, pods etc, metalwork and the like and then buy tubing from a retail outlet and bolts from a retailer you will price your project out of existence. All of the above items needs to be done in house to control both quality and cost. There is no doubt you can put something like a t500 thruster on the market as a kit for under $10k but is there a market and is it worth the investment. I don't think so or I would have already done it. With the shadow that hangs over Raa at the moment that I think will remain for some years it would not be a good time to invest in something that you require a return from or a living for that matter. On the other hand if a group of people did it as a project without expecting a profit just the return of their investment then have a go.

 

 

[thommo]

Yes we have looked at setting up a shop just to produce the kits. Looking at 10 straight up. Only thing that will be sublet out would be wing skins. The rest would be done in house Manufacturing pods,brackets,tubes drilled ready for assembly.

 

I agree with what's happening with Raa and there is already aircraft out there flying for $10-$20k.

 

Looks like we will look for a new venture.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

have you looked at importing kits and build them as built 95.10 planes?

 

 

[David Isaac]

There would be a market for a high speed hi tech 95-10 aircraft, but no one has offered one yet. The Sapphire was probably the fastest of the mass produced types. Of course the Facet Opel was the fastest ever, but only one produced.

 

Maybe if Pylon 500 got off his back side and produced his flyer he would find a market ... LOL.

 

 

[thommo]

We thought about a slick looking carbon fiber aircraft but costs rise even more.

 

There's nothing like rag and tube flying at 50knots.

 

Looking into electric as well but prices on the equipment is still expensive.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

thommo a titan tornado 1 is USD$11.6K you need to add paint, gauges, engine and prop to finish. they fly OK on a rotax 447 but I have seen them with Jab 2200s

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

How much more rag and tube do you want? $350 for a set of plans, $2000 for some Spruce & ply and off you go! If you wanted to you could get one of these flying with an EA81 for $10 000. No specialty tools needed and been flying for 80 0dd years. Why are folk trying to reinvent the wheel?....Scotty

 

 

 

[winsor68]

How much more rag and tube do you want? $350 for a set of plans, $2000 for some Spruce & ply and off you go! If you wanted to you could get one of these flying with an EA81 for $10 000. No specialty tools needed and been flying for 80 0dd years. Why are folk trying to reinvent the wheel?....Scotty [ATTACH]23584[/ATTACH]

Because Scotty.. It takes 3000 hours and the an extensive workshop...and an expensive hanger.

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

Because Scotty.. It takes 3000 hours and the an extensive workshop...and an expensive hanger.

Nope...building mine in a single car garage and with a 3 piece wing can be stored at home.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Ah Scotty ... the Pietenpol takes shape ... well done

 

 

[flyvulcan]

The Airdrome Aeroplanes line of aircraft includes some that meet 95:10 criteria with kits costing less than USD8000.

 

See the 3/4 scale Fokker Dr1 at http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/FokkerDr-I{3-4scale}.html

 

So an affordable 95:10 could potentially be done using similar construction techniques.

 

 

[Marty_d]

How much more rag and tube do you want? $350 for a set of plans, $2000 for some Spruce & ply and off you go! If you wanted to you could get one of these flying with an EA81 for $10 000. No specialty tools needed and been flying for 80 0dd years. Why are folk trying to reinvent the wheel?....Scotty [ATTACH]23584[/ATTACH]

That looks beautiful. Are they bicycle rims for the main wheels??

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

That looks beautiful. Are they bicycle rims for the main wheels??

Hi Marty...they are 21inch custom motorcycle rims and Avon tyres.

Scotty

 

 

 

 

[winsor68]

My two bobs worth.

 

I reckon the market is there...not readily but there for the taking nonetheless.

 

People pay $30 ooo for a tinnie... And people pay $150 dollars an hour to hire a $100000 airplane... Surely if certified to hire the investment for flying schools is worthwhile.

 

 

[paulh]

My two bobs worth.I reckon the market is there...not readily but there for the taking nonetheless.

People pay $30 ooo for a tinnie... And people pay $150 dollars an hour to hire a $100000 airplane... Surely if certified to hire the investment for flying schools is worthwhile.

I'm sure this has been discussed before elsewhere on this forum, however I sure would hire a low performance single seat aircraft if it was measurably cheaper than a fast dual seater, ie more hours flown for the same dollars, but the numbers never seem to add up.

 

If there were lower cost single seat aircraft legally able to be hired and schools were confident to allow hire ie trusted the pilot to bring it back in one piece, then schools/owners might be able to make it viable, but the component costs of hiring as quoted elsewhere don't indicate that a $30k aircraft is going to hire out for heaps less than the $100k aircraft - as the other costs are not proportional. The potential hire out time has been advised by some who runs schools to be much less than the popular two seat aircraft types due to less demand, more restricted due to wind speed etc. - possible comparison with trikes.

 

Shame really - be nice to try some of the just for fun flying single seaters at a cost that was reasonable, even say 2/3 of the cost of the two seater would be acceptable

 

But people need to explore all of these ideas - if you gather up the concerns raised on many current threads here related to the future of RAA and the costs of flying etc etc., then options are necessary if we are not to end up all sitting on the ground (currently glad I don't own a $100k plus aircraft with all the instability issues)

 

 

[Deskpilot]

As much as I'd like to see more 95-10 craft around, I'm beginning to think that it's going to impossible to encourage any new folk into the family due to the increase in membership fees (discussed elsewhere in today's forum) My funds are stretched to the limit (pensioner) and I doubt I'll be renewing my certificate anytime soon. If I ever manage to build one of my creations, I probably be flying it illegally, no higher than 300ft, not across highways or over built up areas.

 

What goes around, comes around me thinks.

 

 

[Teckair]

As much as I'd like to see more 95-10 craft around, I'm beginning to think that it's going to impossible to encourage any new folk into the family due to the increase in membership fees (discussed elsewhere in today's forum) My funds are stretched to the limit (pensioner) and I doubt I'll be renewing my certificate anytime soon. If I ever manage to build one of my creations, I probably be flying it illegally, no higher than 300ft, not across highways or over built up areas.What goes around, comes around me thinks.

Yes and hence the dissension among the people who want affordable flying who are told if they can't afford cost increases due to what the top end guys want then they should forget about flying and take up bowls.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't think they are actually saying that. Teckair. Nev

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Yes and hence the dissension among the people who want affordable flying who are told if they can't afford cost increases due to what the top end guys want then they should forget about flying and take up bowls.

I don't think that's quite what was meant. If you want good representation for any sport you need to have a paid staff and paid lawyers, paid accountants etc. Without them the regulators will run all over you and so will the membership. I happen to think that a couple of hundred bucks a year membership fee to be provided with that representation, insurance, a magazine, a website, a training infrastructure and legal support should I need it, is an absolute bargain. I'm not suggesting further debate about the quality of that provision at present, there's plenty being done to put it to rights as far as I can see. Those things do get better and worse cyclically, as soon as it's running smoothly again and the membership isn't howling then some factions will start to rest on their laurels and the whole cycle will begin on the downward spiral again - unless we have learnt enough to put watchdogs in place.

 

The last year I flew commercially I spent many thousands on publications, insurances, medical and all that. At the same time I was a member of the pistol club, that cost over $500 a year in the required local, State and National fees. SAAA fees are $190 a year and you don't get anything much for it at all. I just rang around and find that skydivers have to pay $204 a year for membership of APF plus their drop zone membership, trike flyers can choose between RAA or HGFA, so they pay the new RAA fees or between $336 and $389/yr according to which State they live in, hang glider pilots have to pay HGFA between $336-$389, glider pilots pay $252 plus compulsory local club fees and ASRA just put theirs up to $304 for gyro pilots.

 

That makes our new membership fee the cheapest of all sport aviation. So how much do people think is the kind of cost we should be paying bearing in mind that a large proportion of the total is for PL insurance? And BTW, ASRA membership just jumped from $190/yr to $304/yr solely due to the insurance cost increase.

 

For those who do think that lawn bowls might be a better option I also rang our local club, Burleigh Bowls and it's $95/yr, so you would only save about enough for the white hat.