Xair info please..........

[Guest Maj Millard]

I have a country gentleman with an often used Xair, and he is having to do the Weight and balance tango courtesy of the Raa. Mind you it's been flying fine for at least 12 years so there is no problem, just the usual paperwork drama.

 

So does anyone know the factory datum location on the Xair, or does anyone have an Xair manual with the W&B figures in it that we can copy...............Thanking you........Maj.......

 

 

[Spriteah]

http://www.mcp.com.au/xair/manuals/manuals.html

 

Try that link.

 

Jim.

 

 

[frank marriott]

I have a country gentleman with an often used Xair, and he is having to do the Weight and balance tango courtesy of the Raa. Mind you it's been flying fine for at least 12 years so there is no problem, just the usual paperwork drama.So does anyone know the factory datum location on the Xair, or does anyone have an Xair manual with the W&B figures in it that we can copy...............Thanking you........Maj.......

Or more correctly you mean courtesy of the CASA audit of non-complying rego details??????

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Or more correctly you mean courtesy of the CASA audit of non-complying rego details??????

I very much doubt if any aircraft has actually been made any safer as a result of the CASA paper-work audit. Some have been made less safe as a result of having to go backwards, and refit way less efficient, outdated, and not optimized in the first place, propellers.

 

This Xair has been flying just fine for 12 years, and I can guarantee tidying up some paper work in its file will not make it any safer. The file of course did at one stage have all the required data in it , but it like in many other cases has been 'miss-placed.....It is not paperwork that initiated this sport in the early years, if we had to deal with CASAs bad days back then we would never have left the ground in the first place.!!............Maj.....

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Thank you Spriteah, the manuals have all the data in them that we need to satisfy the paper monster in Canberra !....................Cheers Ross

 

 

[frank marriott]

..It is not paperwork that initiated this sport in the early years, if we had to deal with CASAs bad days back then we would never have left the ground in the first place.!!............Maj.....

Ross

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that things were not different years ago. The fact is what is required now is the problem in some areas. Whether it is good or bad can be argued but for what purpose? We all have to live in an over regulated society in all aspects of living. I don't think it is helpful to blame RAA for this one other then to say perhaps it should not have been allowed in the first place.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Ross if you install Google on your PC you only need to type in what you are looking for to find the information "xair weight and balance manual" try it!

 

I have google on all my PCs and my phone and tablet and am very happy with the service.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

..It is not paperwork that initiated this sport in the early years, if we had to deal with CASAs bad days back then we would never have left the ground in the first place.!!............Maj.....Ross

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that things were not different years ago. The fact is what is required now is the problem in some areas. Whether it is good or bad can be argued but for what purpose? We all have to live in an over regulated society in all aspects of living. I don't think it is helpful to blame RAA for this one other then to say perhaps it should not have been allowed in the first place.

Frank I don't blame Raa for this problem, and you are correct we do live in an over-regulated society, and most of it is pure BS that is getting a good stench to it by now.

 

Institutions like CASA live and breath the stuff, and rely on it to justify their very existence.

 

It really comes down to the differerence between ideology and reality, and I'd like anyone to show me one example where not having ones RAA paperwork in order has made an aircraft unsafe, or caused even the smallest incident in past years...........Maj.....

 

 

[farri]

It is not paperwork that initiated this sport in the early years, if we had to deal with CASA bad days back then we would never have left the ground in the first place.!!............Maj.....

Ross, I agree on that but as you know, I was one of the guys who originally did it my way, however, when I wanted to instruct, I had to do it their way (CASA) or I wouldn`t have been able to do it at all, at least legally.

 

The fact is what is required now is the problem in some areas. Whether it is good or bad can be argued but for what purpose? We all have to live in an over regulated society in all aspects of living.

That is correct!.......We can`t blame CASA for wanting the paperwork to be in order. As they are the regulator, that is their duty and they will be held responsible, if it is not.

 

Frank.

 

 

[wantafly]

Frank I don't blame Raa for this problem, and you are correct we do live in an over-regulated society, and most of it is pure BS that is getting a good stench to it by now.Institutions like CASA live and breath the stuff, and rely on it to justify their very existence.

It really comes down to the differerence between ideology and reality, and I'd like anyone to show me one example where not having ones RAA paperwork in order has made an aircraft unsafe, or caused even the smallest incident in past years...........Maj.....

You might like to put that to the Smith and Guthrie families where, despite ill informed comment on the accident cause and sequence in this and other forums, their husbands’ and fathers’ deaths in a Sting 2000 were directly attributable to neglect of paperwork.

 

 

 

Adherence to RAAus paperwork procedures would have detected false documentation, prevented faulty registration and ownership transfer, identified maintenance failures, anticipated the engine failure, provided correct operating parameters critical to safe flight and landing, and, perhaps most importantly, notified the true MTOW prior to the flight so the passenger would simply not have been in the aircraft.

 

In short, if correct regulatory paperwork had been followed, the flight would never have happened and two good men would still be with us so, if the current registration debacle means that one other innocent life is saved, it has been well worthwhile.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Sorry mate and I do not want to sound callus or anything but whether paper work was 100 % kosher or not. It has nothing to do with trained pilots or pilot pulling off a successful landing after a engine failure.(or not).

 

 

[DWF]

Sorry mate and I do not want to sound callus or anything but whether paper work was 100 % kosher or not. It has nothing to do with trained pilots or pilot pulling off a successful landing after a engine failure.(or not).

Remember the Swiss cheese analogy.

 

If any one of the above factors had been as they should have been then the outcome would probably have been different.

 

 

[winsor68]

Sorry mate and I do not want to sound callus or anything but whether paper work was 100 % kosher or not. It has nothing to do with trained pilots or pilot pulling off a successful landing after a engine failure.(or not).

Seems to me that if the "book" says the factory built aircraft stalls at 43knots at 550kgs at best glide speed...and it actually stalls at 52 knots at that weight which incidentally is 100 kgs over factory tested maximum weight... Then someone needs an arse kicking.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

You might like to put that to the Smith and Guthrie families where, despite ill informed comment on the accident cause and sequence in this and other forums, their husbands’ and fathers’ deaths in a Sting 2000 were directly attributable to neglect of paperwork. 

 

Adherence to RAAus paperwork procedures would have detected false documentation, prevented faulty registration and ownership transfer, identified maintenance failures, anticipated the engine failure, provided correct operating parameters critical to safe flight and landing, and, perhaps most importantly, notified the true MTOW prior to the flight so the passenger would simply not have been in the aircraft.

 

In short, if correct regulatory paperwork had been followed, the flight would never have happened and two good men would still be with us so, if the current registration debacle means that one other innocent life is saved, it has been well worthwhile.

Ah, I knew this one would raise its ugly head. Paperwork was complete on this one, but it was allegedly falsified by the importer, and seller of the aircraft. New logbooks were alleged to have been created concealing a past history of the aircraft. This previous history of the aircraft was alleged to be conceled during the Australian registration process by the importer.

 

Please tell me how the RAAus is supposed to check on this info when it is not revealed in the first place. Surely you do not expect the RAA to search all over Europe for this information, every time an aircraft is imported ?..................Maj....

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Ah, I knew this one would raise its ugly head. Paperwork was complete on this one, but it was allegably falsified by the importer, and seller of the aircraft. New logbooks were alleged to have been created conceling a past history of the aircraft. This previous history of the aircraft was alleged to be conceled during the Australian registration process by the importer.Please tell me how the RAAus is supposed to check on this info when it is not revealed in the first place. Surely you do not expect the RAA to search all over Europe for this information, every time an aircraft is imported from Europe ?..................Maj....

I would offer the observation that, had the aircraft been required to have a C of A, the falsification of the data would have almost certainly come to light, because the aircraft would have to come into Australia on an export C of A. Because the RAA system lack a C of A process, the acceptance of the aircraft by RAA for registration is the de facto substitute of the C of A; the purchaser has no other authoritative document on which he can rely. Therefore, the RAA system is deficient. It purports to supply more or less equivalent safety to the CASA system, but in fact it fails miserably to do so. The current registration debacle is ample evidence that CASA thinks this is the case.

The RAA system allowed unscrupulous importers to rort the system for at least a decade. The current mess is the consequence.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Ah, I knew this one would raise its ugly head. Paperwork was complete on this one, but it was allegedly falsified by the importer, and seller of the aircraft. New logbooks were alleged to have been created concealing a past history of the aircraft. This previous history of the aircraft was alleged to be conceled during the Australian registration process by the importer.Please tell me how the RAAus is supposed to check on this info when it is not revealed in the first place. Surely you do not expect the RAA to search all over Europe for this information, every time an aircraft is imported ?..................Maj....

I'd be very careful talking about things like this. While I won't comment on the allegations any more than has already been speculated there are some pertinent facts that no one can really argue. Several 'charges' were put forward as a result of the coroner's findings and investigations, hearings, etc. followed. RA-Aus, CASA and even the DPP had a crack and the person in question was exonerated every time.

 

And before anyone suggests any improprieties in my posting, links with Michael Coates, him being my long lost brother (where that rumour came from I don't know), etc. this information comes from his lawyer, not the man himself. Of course I am not privvy to the proceedings themselves but the outcomes are public knowledge and have been followed through with due process.

 

Form your own opinions but tread carefully when talking about this stuff in a publicly accessible forum protected only by the need to register.

 

Cheers,

 

Michael Monck

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Don't beat around the bush Michael,why don't you tell us what you know .........Maj...

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Don't beat around the bush Michael,why don't you tell us what you know .........Maj...

From my knowledge the case that every one is talking about has been settled, I'm not sure of the exact terms at this stage and I have no doubt that they will be deemed confidential between the parties and won't be discussed by either party for privacy reasons. Disclosure of this would no doubt bring cause for further litigation and none of us want that!

 

With respect to the other cases again, as I said above, I don't know much about the proceedings themselves but can say that I speak to Michael's lawyer on a regular basis and, coincidentally, spoke to him just yesterday. While the main discussion was on another matter this topic came up. There were all sorts of allegations made by several parties about falsification of documents, poor maintenance, loss of records, etc. but each and every charge was dismissed. On all counts the accusations of false records were not proven, the aircraft registration (relating to foreign rego, etc.) was unsubstantiated, poor maintenance was not found to be the case and so on.

 

A comment was made that the records that were required to be kept by Michael were indeed very complete and accurate. Keep in mind that during the coroner's inquest it was suggested that the maintenance records could not be found. Now ask yourself this, if you sell your own aircraft who should have the records? And who is now responsible for maintaining the correct records? From memory I think it was suggested that the records couldn't be found and so Michael was responsible for this. Furthermore, several people were called to provide information and, I have been told, were not fully briefed on what they were there to discuss leaving them woefully unprepared. The allegations, accusations, charges, whatever that came from the coroner led to further action by other parties. Unfortunately, on a lot of fronts, it turns out that the subsequent legal actions were based on these incomplete or otherwise incorrect findings which is exactly what was discovered during the full legal process.

 

I don't want to get drawn into a long winded discussion on the merits of any particular case or specific actions, findings, etc., but my main point is that I do know that each and everyone of us should be careful when talking about these things in public. Allegations and accusations can not only cause a great deal of business damage in terms of reputational harm and so on, but they can also cause a lot of people personal grief and frustration. Furthermore, they can land the individuals in hot water by exposing people to legal actions or indeed damaging existing claims underway. We all need to be careful from that perspective.

 

Cheers,

 

Mick.

 

PS. Good luck in the elections.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Why would somebody place a "Funny" on Micks post above, I didn't see any humour in it. I found it informative.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Dazza, I don't see a funny, I only see an informative..............Maj...

 

 

[eightyknots]

I can see a "helpful" too

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Dazza, I don't see a funny, I only see an informative..............Maj...

Truth is the daughter of time. The truth hasn't yet emerged - but it will.

Apart from that, isn't this thread getting rather a long way off subject?

 

 

[Methusala]

In discussing the merits or not of authority's surveillance of our activities it should be remembered always that we are compelled to display a bright yellow notice stating that people fly in our aircraft (entirely) at their own risk. This is the way that we want it and I believe the way it should be. The dead hand of bureaucracy has caused the cost of GA flying to ridiculous expense and we should be the alternative. That is we should be adults and do our utmost to ensure that our activities will hurt neither ourselves or the public. Regards, Don

 

 

[dazza 38]

I

 

Dazza, I don't see a funny, I only see an informative..............Maj...

it was there but it has now been removed