Spin practice

[ausadvance]

ok guys, question for you!

 

I fitted my Vg's today (with great sucess!) and was doing all my test flying with them on. Lots of take offs and landings, turns shallow and steep ect seeing how it all goes with the changes and all was exceptional. when on the ground I mentioned that I would like to but it through some incipient spins and recovery's to see if there is any changes there when I was up doing my stall testing.

 

A bloke on the ground jumped up and said cant do that mate, its an aerobatic maneuver and your RA.

 

Now fair enough we cant do aerobatics. But practicing spin recovery surely we are allowed to practice that? my intention was to do this well above 3000 feet. and not to maintain any spins, just a boot full of rudder on stall and straight into recovery. VG testing aside, this is ESSENTIAL practice that I think we all don't do enough of.

 

What are your guys thoughts.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I think it essential practice. But it isn't allowed under RA. For my two bob's worth, there ought to be RA aircraft certified for it and it ought to be a mandatory part of training.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Not allowed.

 

One thing is certain — NEVER, NEVER intentionally spin an aircraft that has not been through the complete spin certification process; they may be incapable of recovery from fully developed autorotation, or the recovery attempt may result in a violent manoeuvre that overloads the airframe.

 

 

[ausadvance]

Well that does amaze me! I mean I don't know about GA but I know in gliding just the incipient spin is not only encouraged but mandatory practice! it shocks me to think that it is not allowed in RA. a developed spin certainly not! but letting the nose drop off, opposite rudder and central stick. hardly rocket science and could very well save your life one day. How many people are killed world wide by aircraft spinning in! I'm remembering back but I could have sworn I did it as part of my training.

 

 

[dazza 38]

NOT ALLOWED TIM. But having said that, I couldn't care less what the rules say. I was taught incipient spins in a drifter back in the day when learning to fly. And maybe a bit more than incipient spins. Was it conforming to the rules ? Probably not. Was it something that may save my life one day. YEP

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

ausadvance, couldn't agree with you more in respect to practising stall/spin recovery. A spin entry recovery is not recovery from a developed spin, and is indeed a skill we should possess and practise. It is really a stall recovery where a wing has stalled and if allowed to, may develope into a spin if not corrected.

 

And doing this at 3000' or higher is correct as taught in GA , when practising stalls and spin recovery.

 

I was also out today above 3000, practising slow flight with different flap settings, at slow approach speeds as I often use when taking the Lightwing into short strips . Also noting stall speeds and the effect of using power or not.

 

Why do it ??......because I felt I needed to to maintain my skills and edge. Was it time well spent...hell yes !......and good fun too. Of course there was the possibility that one could end in a spin, and yes I did refresh my stall/ spin recovery techniques mentally beforehand.

 

Don't worry mate, there are those out there who see a good side-slip as being a reckless and dangerous manoeuvre also !......................Maj.......

 

 

[Marty_d]

Well that does amaze me! I mean I don't know about GA but I know in gliding just the incipient spin is not only encouraged but mandatory practice! it shocks me to think that it is not allowed in RA. a developed spin certainly not! but letting the nose drop off, opposite rudder and central stick. hardly rocket science and could very well save your life one day. How many people are killed world wide by aircraft spinning in! I'm remembering back but I could have sworn I did it as part of my training.

Spin recovery is practised in GA too, at least it used to be.

As Dazza says - if it can save your life but is against the rules, what's more important?

 

 

[ausadvance]

It has saved my life once when an old farmer took me for a spin when checking dams, He wasn't used to flying 2 pax, and the aircraft started to go into a spin when inspecting a dam. Being a young bloke my reflex's where quite alot quicker, AND HAVING HAD THIS PUNCHED IN OVER AND OVER AGAIN I was able to recover the aircraft in no time without even thinking about it. What could have easily been a double fatal turned into a nothing worth even blinking an eye lid at! hence my passion toward the subject.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yes indeed Marty_d, I did spin recovery and spin entry in a C 172 when training of my PPl in the States. In fact I got to use it shortly after when out practising manoeuvres solo, just prior to my license flight test. I unintentially entered a two turn spin while practising stalls with flaps deployed. Recovery was normal and carried out as taught.......Maj...

 

 

[sfGnome]

I might be missing something important here, but the RA training syllabus requires that the student can "execute recovery from incipient spin".

 

Recovery at incipient spin stage (stall with wing drop) is performed and controlled flight is resumed.Recovery at incipient spin stage during a turn is performed and controlled flight is resumed with due regard to low drag/higher inertia design.

I definitely had to do that during RA training. Isn't that what ausadvance was proposing?

 

 

[dodo]

I might be missing something important here, but the RA training syllabus requires that the student can "execute recovery from incipient spin".I definitely had to do that during RA training. Isn't that what ausadvance was proposing?

Correct. Stalls and incipient spins are permitted in RA, and are part of the certificate syllabus. Fully developed spins are not permitted.

dodo

 

 

[DrZoos]

The problem is that it might kill you trying. mainly because the aircraft isnt strong enough. Or because there is insufficient control movements to recover. You really do become a test pilot no matter how many times you have done it. Your testing the design, the response and worse the aircraft strength every time you do it...

 

Sorry dude, totally agree its a necessary skill, but breaching the rules and creating your own envelope is not the way to go about it. Hiring an aircraft certified to do so (dual) is how to do it.

 

Any other way is justification of totally reckless behaviour.

 

Spins are in the theory syllabus, but they are not part of the prac . Incipient spins are, but not spins.. It is totally banned in RA. Spins are regarded as aerobatics and thus banned.

 

You can practice Incipient spins, but not spins.

 

 

[DrZoos]

From flysafe

 

Developed spin recovery training is not included in the RA-Aus Pilot Certificate syllabus or the General Aviation Private Pilot Licence syllabus, but stall and incipient spin awareness and recovery are normal parts of the syllabi. A spin is usually classified as an aerobatic manoeuvre and, as all RA-Aus registered aircraft are prohibited from such manoeuvres, they shall not be allowed to enter an intentional developed spin. More to the point, no ultralight (and rather few light non-aerobatic aircraft) has ever been through the complete flight test schedule for spin recovery.

 

However, gaining some experience and confidence in recovery from full autorotation can be readily and cheaply obtained by practicing a half-dozen spin recoveries with an instructor in a two-seat glider or powered aerobatic GA aircraft. It is probably better experience in the glider, as you are also exposed to the fact that every glider landing is achieved easily without using any chemical energy; on the other hand, a GA aircraft provides more opportunity to also explore the basic aerobatic manoeuvres

 

 

[turboplanner]

Correct. Stalls and incipient spins are permitted in RA, and are part of the certificate syllabus. Fully developed spins are not permitted.dodo

Correct; the bigger question for this thread is why weren't the people commenting trained in this; why were they left to their own devices where airframes could be compromised for later pilots?

 

 

[facthunter]

A "standard" Drifter would be OK.... MAYBE your modified one is too, but who knows? MAYBE yours performs better, but who knows? Practicing low speed flight and approaching a wing drop situation should definitely be practiced. How a plane is rigged will make a heap of difference and planes vary a lot. I recall an Auster I regularly flew out of Bankstown would always drop the RHS wing even if I had left wing low and some left rudder as well, it would always go over to the right. Obviously at some point this would not happen, but the plane was misrigged . One could not assume that it's spin characteristics were as the " Normal" plane would be so you are becoming a test pilot in such a situation. Nev

 

 

[ausadvance]

ok, so just getting my head around things and making things clear. The incipient spins I did during my training in this very aircraft was ok. To continue to do them hear and there without an instructor on board. And I really do mean here and there. I can assure this isn't as a hobby or for kicks I really do see it as important practice, is ok. correct?

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm not disagreeing with the idea of practicing. Your plane is not standard so I'm trying to get the legal and real situation you are in. It should be OK , Might even be better, but who knows? Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

" unintentially entered a two turn spin while practising stalls with flaps deployed"

 

In a C172 and as a student - thats a worry. 2 turns, what were you doing whilst it developed. Ross, I assume your reaction time is a bit better now days. If you just let go a 172 will do better then that.

 

 

[ausadvance]

I'm not disagreeing with the idea of practicing. Your plane is not standard so I'm trying to get the legal and real situation you are in. It should be OK , Might even be better, but who knows? Nev

thanks Nev, I don't want anyone to think I'm having any digs here, I really appreciate the input. I certainly understand the risk taken on ones self when doing anything along these lines. I will never pretend that even an incipient spin is a no worries situation. But it is the Legal standing that I am trying to understand, is this legal. as i would rather try and understand the aircraft's incipient spin reaction and recovery in as best controlled environment as I can gather, over trying to suss it out on a low and slow turn at 500 feet with a passenger on board. But I also don't want to be breaking rules

 

 

[facthunter]

Your safety is more important than rules. Your plane does need to prove itself if you fly it at the limit. I'm a bit of a drifter fan, and VG's too. Nev

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

A "standard" Drifter would be OK.... MAYBE your modified one is too, but who knows? MAYBE yours performs better, but who knows? Practicing low speed flight and approaching a wing drop situation should definitely be practiced. How a plane is rigged will make a heap of difference and planes vary a lot. I recall an Auster I regularly flew out of Bankstown would always drop the RHS wing even if I had left wing low and some left rudder as well, it would always go over to the right. Obviously at some point this would not happen, but the plane was misrigged . One could not assume that it's spin characteristics were as the " Normal" plane would be so you are becoming a test pilot in such a situation. Nev

Further to what Facthunter said above -

 

I bought the first certified Drifter that Austflight sold. After all the certification testing (this was about 1986/7) they built a first batch of two certified planes, one was the well known Pink Panther which the factory kept as a demonstrator/trainer and I bought the other - Lollipop - they were named according to their flashy colours.

 

By the time mine was ready for collection I had my flying school established and had been appointed CFI by DoA (or was it CAA by then?), it wasn't until a couple of years later that Bill Dinsmore ran the first CFI course through AUF and we were then able to be appointed by AUF Ops rather than going through the Dept.

 

Anyway - I took my new Drifter over to Toogoolawah where I had been very kindly offered a hangar by Dave McEvoy (Ramblers drop zone) and each morning I used to fly over to Watts Bridge where I ran the school and did most of the training. As I got to know the plane I got more and more adventurous with it and it was amazing what you could do with a Drifter especially since you could do anything at all with it and not come unstuck because they were UNSPINNABLE. So I used to arrive at Watts with the biggest side-slips imaginable and with the nose held high, can't spin 'em you see! Now - before anyone starts arguing, I knew it was impossible to spin them because the certification package said so. During testing the factory had reportedly gone to any and all lengths to try and spin the test machine and it wouldn't spin, so they were declared unspinnable. And don't forget that Wayne had a lot to do with the flight tests for the certification package, as did Jim Fenton I think, so if they could have spun it they would have.

 

About a fortnight after I got my plane I was getting to know it pretty well and also getting a bit fed up with some of the flight characteristics, it was a heavy bus compared to the earlier non-certified Drifters and with the right ballast in the nose and under the seat cushion (I was a lightweight then) it still had a lot of stick force to maintain (no elevator trim) and I wasn't happy with the poor performance which I felt was due to the huge amount of washout that was rigged into the wings.

 

So with some judicious weighing and calculating I worked out what the wing and horizontal stabiliser rigging should be like if it was rigged more conventionally, did a wool tuft of the HS to confirm and set about adding some washers to the tail bolts and twisting and untwisting the relevant flying wires, pulled down the tensioners on the landing wires and went flying. Pure bliss it was - light control forces, about 4kt better cruise (hey, that's 12%!) and a very noticeably lower stall/landing speed now that the whole wing was working and not fighting itself.

 

On the next flight I nearly killed myself. I started my showy nose high slip approach from about 500ft and Lollipop wasn't the 'good ship' anymore, it flipped inverted and completed almost a full turn before I recovered frighteningly close to the ground. Gladly I was very spin-current and reacted correctly in an instant, but even so it was very close. Once I recovered my composure I fuelled up and flew straight to Boonah and took Wayne for a fly to show him my new discovery. Wayne being Wayne, he was ecstatic of course and spent the next hour or so exploring the envelope.

 

So, to paraphrase what Facthunter said - beware, not all planes even of the same type behave the same, and a small rigging change can make a big change to performance and stall/spin behaviour, both the entry and the recovery.

 

I left my rigging as it was for the rest of the years I had it and enjoyed its better performance, light handling and all that and it served well teaching a bunch of folk to be spin-safe, and the factory must have rigged all their future ones that way too because they all spun just fine after that.

 

A final note, and I'm not saying it's always the case, there are bound to be exceptions, but test pilots have regularly commented that planes that are hard to spin can be hard to recover and vice versa.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... no ultralight (and rather few light non-aerobatic aircraft) has ever been through the complete flight test schedule for spin recovery....

Perhaps not every possible spin scenario, DrZoos, but I have heard an ex-RAAF test pilot describing at least 80 spin tests in a Jabiru. They have been very extensively tested, but that doesn't mean any of us should explore those boundaries.

I do agree with your advice re spin training in gliders and GA aircraft.

 

 

[dodo]

I think the Jabiru went through the full spin test - and failed. I heard a similar story of about 100 spin tests, two of which were unrecoverable, requiring use of the spin chute. That's why they come with a placard "no intentional spins".

 

Again, that means a developed spin, an incipient spin is OK.

 

But - be careful. Legal is good, safe and legal is better.

 

dodo

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

After my first solo (in a Jab) the instructor mentioned that he had once used up 3000' recovering from a spin in the same aircraft. Tiny little rudder.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

" unintentially entered a two turn spin while practising stalls with flaps deployed"In a C172 and as a student - thats a worry. 2 turns, what were you doing whilst it developed. Ross, I assume your reaction time is a bit better now days. If you just let go a 172 will do better then that.

I was enjoying it Frank...and learning what a spin looks like....not shixxing my pants............Maj...