Spin practice

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I used the words "quite different" not "liberal".

Fair enough; however in view of the source - FAR 21.173 - I would suggest they are really not very different at all.

 

 

[ayavner]

This is a great discussion! i also wish full spins were taught and aircraft certified under RAAus... I know I'd feel better if the first time I have to do it is under instruction, not under duress!

 

I would agree with DrZoos regarding the safety and legality, so I think what I might do is sign up with one of these aerobatic outfits and get some training in a properly certified aircraft. Then if one day it should happen to me for whatever reason in a Jab, I'll have practiced it properly and can hope that the plane would withstand the attempt to recover - if its an emergency, you do what you must; but no need to create an emergency for yourself or the next guy by practicing a full spin if the plane clearly isn't certified for it.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes ..Do it in the right plane with the right person.

 

This subject goes to the essence of controlled 3 axis flight at the limit.. The "traditional" stall (as taught) and the classical spin entry and recovery are quite divorced from what will get you into trouble in reality. Talking of one turn, incipient spin.. Splitting hairs ..IF you stall or flick the plane in a steep turn ( which is the most likely place to inadvertently do it) you are pretty much there instantly. You need to do it ( the training) when dynamically loaded, when your docile C-172 or whatever, becomes something else entirely.

 

A classic spin and recovery will usually see 2.5 "G" and you can add possible gust loads to that, to easily take it to 4G (or more).. A "flick" is something like a horizontal spin. (won't stay horizontal for too long) but it's still a spin. The point I wish to emphasis is the simple stall exercises and spin entry /recover demo is not worth a lot on it's own.

 

To do this properly we need dedicated training aircraft that need strength and can be regularly inspected easily and fly properly. We got it wrong in the mid 60's. Perhaps smaller aircraft need better pilot skills than larger, more refined designs that have been made easy to fly. I suggest they do. Nev

 

 

[dodo]

avayner - the gliding suggestion is a good one. I went gliding for exactly this reason. The only downside is the danger of acquiring another expensive hobby.

 

dodo

 

 

[frank marriott]

Another point to consider [and before I get jumped on too harshly, yes I have an aerobatic rating all be it only in low performance aerobatic aircraft, Aerobat & Decathelon, & I believle ANY advanced training can only be a plus]

 

the 'mandatory' part of spin training has been argued for years - it was a regular debate when I started in the 70s - the basis of the otherside of the arguemnt was [a] that pilot should be trained to be able to recognise the conditions likely to cause a stall/spin and not put themselves in that position, and display recovery from wingdrop in stall +3000'

 

with only average capability to handle stall/spin conditions the likelyhood of recovery close to the ground like base/final turn and distracted for whatever reason, then the most likely result would be contact with the ground anyway.

 

 

Of the two sides, I have only observed pilots agree to differ. I can see where both side are coming from but I guess the cost/effective results may be the decider.

 

As with most things a LITTLE knowledge [and big ego] can be dangerous.

 

 

[frank marriott]

The bolding in my post was not me and I cannot change it for some reaon.

 

 

[facthunter]

Though there were no OLD BOLD PILOTS. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

avayner - the gliding suggestion is a good one. I went gliding for exactly this reason. The only downside is the danger of acquiring another expensive hobby.dodo

Agree emphatically. Glider pilots fly almost continually on the edge of a spin whilst thermalling, and it's not uncommon for the thing to start the beginnings of autorotation, in a turbulent thermal; but one gets so accustomed to it that you correct with a minute stick motion, and the passenger does not even notice. Very like keeping a pushbike upright, actually; you learn to do it as an unconscious reflex action. Once you have acquired this you are virtually "spin-proof", apart from the instances like the inadvertent flick roll, or spin off a cable break whilst winch-launching, where there is no "incipient" phase - the aircraft goes straight into a fully-developed spin. Those instances are dealt with by learning to "unload the wing" - i.e. shove the stick forward to zero G. Did you know it's impossible to stall an aircraft at zero G? I've never understood why this is not taught as part of the normal syllabus. You never hear an instructor use the words "unload the wing", do you? (Maybe they do when teaching aerobatics, but you can do this in any aeroplane without overloading it - provided you don't maintain it too long!

 

 

[facthunter]

Pity you didn't bring that up earlier Dafydd. It's what it is all about. If you move the stick forward a distance to an appropriate position, and apply full power you will be out of the stall straight away, ( then get the attitude right and take it from there).. Unload the wing it is. You can almost "punch" the plane out of the stall. With gliders the long wingspan is there to contend with as an extra factor. The main thing it you are in a stall "situation" is to regain control "ability" and keep maximum height between you and the ground. The " normally taught" stall recovery uses hundred of feet of height. You obviously don't always have it. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Pity you didn't bring that up earlier Dafydd. It's what it is all about. If you move the stick forward a distance to an appropriate position, and apply full power you will be out of the stall straight away, ( then get the attitude right and take it from there).. Unload the wing it is. You can almost "punch" the plane out of the stall. With gliders the long wingspan is there to contend with as an extra factor. The main thing it you are in a stall "situation" is to regain control "ability" and keep maximum height between you and the ground. The " normally taught" stall recovery uses hundred of feet of height. You obviously don't always have it. Nev

Pity you didn't bring that up earlier Dafydd. It's what it is all about. If you move the stick forward a distance to an appropriate position, and apply full power you will be out of the stall straight away, ( then get the attitude right and take it from there).. Unload the wing it is. You can almost "punch" the plane out of the stall. With gliders the long wingspan is there to contend with as an extra factor. The main thing it you are in a stall "situation" is to regain control "ability" and keep maximum height between you and the ground. The " normally taught" stall recovery uses hundred of feet of height. You obviously don't always have it. Nev

Yes, well, that's the way it should be taught. The only difference in the spin, is that you need to get opposite rudder in FIRST. But unless it's in autorotation, "punch" it out. Good description.

 

 

[facthunter]

Ok.. Well straight after that once you have control (seconds) roll the wings where you need them .Aileron neutral till then. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Ok.. Well straight after that once you have control (seconds) roll the wings where you need them .Aileron neutral till then. Nev

Yes - and if it happens to be on its back, roll it out, don't pull it through.

 

 

[ayavner]

avayner - the gliding suggestion is a good one. I went gliding for exactly this reason. The only downside is the danger of acquiring another expensive hobby.dodo

I won't tell if you won't

 

 

[Bandit12]

Yes - and if it happens to be on its back, roll it out, don't pull it through.

That has caught a few people unawares.....Vne comes up awfully quick when you pull through.

 

 

[facthunter]

The ground comes up at you too if you misjudge it. Nev

 

 

[webbm]

Snowy Aviation organised spin training through a local gliding club for those who wanted it. Maybe more of this?

 

http://snowyaviation.com/page14.htm

 

 

[David Isaac]

Snowy Aviation organised spin training through a local gliding club for those who wanted it. Maybe more of this?http://snowyaviation.com/page14.htm

Great initiative and should be made a compulsory component of an RA Aus Pilots certificate, and that would not be hard to do. There are plenty of gliding clubs around Australia

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Great initiative and should be made a compulsory component of an RA Aus Pilots certificate, and that would not be hard to do. There are plenty of gliding clubs around Australia

That's the way to do it! It would be interesting to hear from the pilots who took advantage of the opportunity.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm a fan of gliders, but I would suggest a modified EMT Emergency Manoeuvers Training in an aerobatic certified aircraft for RAAus INSTRUCTORS at least.. This is NOT aerobatics.... If the instructor is on the ball in other ways I reckon 2 hours flying would cover it and if he/she is already proficient then demonstrate .... Would take about 40 minutes. Be silly to doing any actual flying without ground briefing of a significant nature or you are wasting money. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I'm a fan of gliders, but I would suggest a modified EMT Emergency Manoeuvers Training in an aerobatic certified aircraft for RAAus INSTRUCTORS at least.. This is NOT aerobatics.... If the instructor is on the ball in other ways I reckon 2 hours flying would cover it and if he/she is already proficient then demonstrate .... Would take about 40 minutes. Be silly to doing any actual flying without ground briefing of a significant nature or you are wasting money. Nev

Yes, that's a good idea. I once pulled a glider up into a stall turn, and the instructor in the back nearly wet his pants! He'd never been in such an attitude! How anybody can instruct without this basic knowledge is beyond me. But this sort of thing should indeed be done in a aerobatic-certificated aircraft, because the speeds in recovery are likely to exceed the flight envelope of a recreational aeroplane.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I doubt anything is more graceful than gliders doing aerobatics. I still remember the synchronized glider aerobatics to classical music at the 1988 Bi-centennial airshow at Richmond Air force base in NSW. It was spectacular. No screaming engines, just classical music and smoke streamers on the wingtips.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

I doubt anything is more graceful than gliders doing aerobatics. I still remember the synchronized glider aerobatics to classical music at the 1988 Bi-centennial airshow at Richmond Air force base in NSW. It was spectacular. No screaming engines, just classical music and smoke streamers on the wingtips.

If I'm excused the thread drift, I think you'll like this too - deliberately induced flutter, graceful aerobatics in a non-aerobatic 25m glider with very slow height loss, and a big and low slip to the landing -

 

 

 

[Camel]

This is something that happened 15 years ago, I was out flying my trike and my mates were flying in a Cherokee they decided to fly slow next to me and did this several times my radio did not work at the time as the plug had fallen off the back and I wanted to tell them to get away, the third time they came around I steered away and they steered to me and I hit the wake, the trike went nose down and spun. In ymy training I asked how to fix a spin and was told how and told you will probably die before you fix it, so here I was in a spin in a Trike at 2000 ft above ground, I did what was instructed and it came out and fixed the dive and then told my self lets land and never fly again.

 

I told my old instructor about it and said I was lucky to survive.

 

 

[farri]

so here I was in a spin in a Trike at 2000 ft above ground.

Camel, Thanks for that. I`ll pass your post on to one of the locals here who owns and flies a Trike.

 

I did spin training in the Decathlon, with Bob Harris, GA, CFI at Innisfail ( Mundoo ) aerodrome. I`ve never had to use the training, but it`s there if I ever need it.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Camel]

Camel, Thanks for that. I`ll pass your post on to one of the locals here who owns and flies a Trike.I did spin training in the Decathlon, with Bob Harris, GA, CFI at Innisfail ( Mundoo ) aerodrome. I`ve never had to use the training, but it`s there if I ever need it.

 

Frank.

5 years after that I did spin training in an 150 aerobat prior to doing my RAA instructor training, I did 2 hours and enjoyed the experience but I could taste my breakfast in my mouth. I was also very lucky to do it with a very experienced career pilot with all the credentials in a variety of aircraft from GA, AG, gliders, ultralights and gyros. He would not do RAA instructor training without the spin training. My spin training was written up as a BFR for my PPL.

 

During that flight we did other manovers and importantly demonstrated stalls at high speed proving angle of attack versus airspeed.

 

I believe anyone who is curious about spinning training could consider doing it with a Glider instructor as I believe it is not as frightening, it is a good thing to do and could save your life, when my trike spun I did not panic and remembered clearly what to do, I'm glad I asked the question, I don't know whether I would have panicked without the knowledge.

 

Glad to hear Frank you are responsible and did spin training, makes you a safer pilot.