Tail drager or tricycle ?

[Pilot Pete]

Hey Guys and Gals..........this is all a moot point.

 

REAL PILOTS FLY TAIL DRAGGERS:wink:

 

 

[Bandit12]

Here is another perspective - train in what you will be able to hire when you get certificated (certified?). If you move to a different area or a new type/style becomes available, get checked out/endorsed for that then.

 

That said, nothing looks as nice as a dragger.....

 

 

[DrZoos]

Train in whats easiest first (trike) so you can practice the right skills over and over and over , then learn the harder one (tail dragger) unless you have a specific reason. The only hard part of normal flying is matching the aircraft to the ground. Any monkey can take off, fly and approach, the hard part is matching that 5 or 6 dimensional moving object to the ground. Not so hard in good conditions, but anything else for a learner is difficult.

 

If you want best value for money, best enjoyment then go the trike so that you develop confidence and ability from the get go. Then move to the dragger later. See the other thread in the general discussion section. You dont teach a difficult skill by deliberately making it harder and thats exactly what the choice to go in a tail dragger does. It makes the most difficult part of flying even harder.

 

Similarly you may hear comments indicating learning in a tail dragger will make you a better pilot. Thats a firfy. No one becomes better by learning in a sub optimal environment..its like teaching a surgeon to do his first difficult operations in the dark. It wont make him better at all, he will just be better if the lights go out, and even that is highly questionable.

 

Compare learning to kick a ball properly for the first time. If the coach breaks it down and gives you the correct technique a few steps at a time and allows you to practice that over and over correctly then you are immediately beginning to commit the right skills to memory and muscle memory. If he over complicates it and makes it more difficult then it needs to be then some times you might be committing correct skills to memory and other times you are committing the wrong skills to memory.... Its a sub optimal learning environment to pick a WELL KNOWN more difficult aircraft to land in.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Go tail ( real men fly tail dragger:beg:")

 

 

[metalman]

Train in whats easiest first (trike) so you can practice the right skills over and over and over , then learn the harder one (tail dragger) unless you have a specific reason. The only hard part of normal flying is matching the aircraft to the ground. Any monkey can take off, fly and approach, the hard part is matching that 5 or 6 dimensional moving object to the ground. Not so hard in good conditions, but anything else for a learner is difficult.If you want best value for money, best enjoyment then go the trike so that you develop confidence and ability from the get go. Then move to the dragger later. See the other thread in the general discussion section. You dont teach a difficult skill by deliberately making it harder and thats exactly what the choice to go in a tail dragger does. It makes the most difficult part of flying even harder.

Similarly you may hear comments indicating learning in a tail dragger will make you a better pilot. Thats a firfy. No one becomes better by learning in a sub optimal environment..its like teaching a surgeon to do his first difficult operations in the dark. It wont make him better at all, he will just be better if the lights go out, and even that is highly questionable.

 

Compare learning to kick a ball properly for the first time. If the coach breaks it down and gives you the correct technique a few steps at a time and allows you to practice that over and over correctly then you are immediately beginning to commit the right skills to memory and muscle memory. If he over complicates it and makes it more difficult then it needs to be then some times you might be committing correct skills to memory and other times you are committing the wrong skills to memory.... Its a sub optimal learning environment to pick a WELL KNOWN more difficult aircraft to land in.

Geez, after reading that I'm amazed anyone since WW1 ever managed to get off the ground ,let alone land a plane, I guess all the pilots up until about the early 60's were just lucky ,unless of course no one told them tail draggers would ruin their self confidence and the fun factor would go through the floor,

Matty

 

 

[DrZoos]

Geez, after reading that I'm amazed anyone since WW1 ever managed to get off the ground ,let alone land a plane, I guess all the pilots up until about the early 60's were just lucky ,unless of course no one told them tail draggers would ruin their self confidence and the fun factor would go through the floor,Matty

Thats an interesting and strange way to read things into it...Dont believe i said anything about self confidence, maybe you mean confidence in flying

He asked whats best. A trike is best. Yes tail draggers blah blah blah make real men, put hairs on your chest, mean your ##$% or @#@#$@# must be bigger etc. But for teaching and learning in early skill development phase the easiest aircraft possible is best and thats not a tail dragger, unless you have a hairy chest, hairy back or some other macho and apparently better thing.

 

The guy has already had one attempt at learning to fly and not finished so a learning environment where he can learn in the easiest, best and fastest way possible is probably best. And thats not a tail dragger.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Tail dragers are winners

 

 

[ahlocks]

dragers are ok provided the pre-ops are completed correctly and they are properly decontaminated after use.

 

 

[crashley]

if tail draggers are easier to fly why were all the tail dragger pilots sitting back on the weekend looking at the crosswind and saying it is too strong and gusty to fly when the nose wheel planes took off for their normal flights

 

 

[metalman]

Thats an interesting and strange way to read things into it...Dont believe i said anything about self confidence, maybe you mean confidence in flying

He asked whats best. A trike is best. Yes tail draggers blah blah blah make real men, put hairs on your chest, mean your ##$% or @#@#$@# must be bigger etc. But for teaching and learning in early skill development phase the easiest aircraft possible is best and thats not a tail dragger, unless you have a hairy chest, hairy back or some other macho and apparently better thing.

 

The guy has already had one attempt at learning to fly and not finished so a learning environment where he can learn in the easiest, best and fastest way possible is probably best. And thats not a tail dragger.

I had a really long answer written and was about to post it when it occurred to me, I really don't care what he flys, not in the slightest ,and certainly not enough to get into a to and fro over it, so Cheerio fellas

 

 

[crashley]

yeah I agree who cares if you have a tail wheel nose wheel as long as it has wings

 

on another note

 

on the weekend here we had the pleasure of watching a sabre jet take off for its second flight since being restored

 

great sound smell and sight

 

 

[DrZoos]

Nor do i but i think its fair to answer with truth and honesty to new pilots who base decisions on whats said.

[MarcK]

Thanks for the continued interest. Good arguments from both sides now I have a point of my own to make.

 

1. Yeah it's clear I have no idea how to spell dragger sorry about that. It could be spelling at all that is the issue, I think I was dropped as a baby.

 

But seriously as I have said it comes down to getting the job done with the best chance of completion. So I will keep my skirts shave my chest and what I don't spend on razors I will fly as much as I can. And even if I don't finish again I still love every second even being around aircraft of any type.

 

What did all of you start out in?

 

 

[turboplanner]

We were all rich......

 

 

[MarcK]

Ahh see I am smarter than you I just intend to stay poor.

 

 

[aro]

According to many instructors who teach in tailwheels, in general it doesn't take longer to learn in a tailwheel aircraft than a nosewheel. I did my initial training and first solo in a tailwheel aircraft. The difficult bit is learning to land the aircraft, not the tailwheel.

 

I suspect it is more difficult to learn to fly tailwheel after learning with a nosewheel than to simply start in a tailwheel, because you have to unlearn bad habits from the nosewheel. I think most of the people who claim tailwheels are difficult learned with a nosewheel and did a conversion later, or are just tailwheel pilots who like to grandstand. Some tailwheel aircraft are harder to land than others, but the same is true for nosewheel aircraft.

 

Good tailwheel instructors can be hard to find. An instructor who does ab initio in a tailwheel is likely to be better than the average tailwheel instructor, so if you want to fly tailwheel it could be worth taking advantage of the opportunity. Ultimately, I suggest you learn in which ever aircraft you would rather fly. Personally, I would start in the tailwheel, and if you really find you are having trouble with the first few seconds after touchdown you can always change.

 

One of my favourite articles about tailwheel training:

 

http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleTailwheelTraining.html

 

 

[metalman]

Great article , thanks

 

 

[turboplanner]

The point is not one way is better than another, but to decide what you'll be flying long term, and only have to pay for one set of lessons to teach one technique.

 

They key is to be able to afford to reach the end of your training first; there are many people I know who have a few lessons, run out of money, come back a few years later, do it all again and spend a fortune.

 

As some people have said, there is only one aircraft available at their location - so that's what you train on rather than drive two hours.

 

Sure, when you've got your certificate and can appreciate different techniques, the only thing stopping you trying many different types of aircraft is again money.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

I currently have two tail draggers and no tricycles, I used to say I needed the conventional gear planes due to my poor strip but foxbats and zenair/savannahs make a mockery of that argument so I guess I just like the finesse that's required to land a dragger nicely, I find flying them more fun/interesting. Draggers are more recreational. We all know that trikes are the better design, more practical self straightening traits, better visability in the slow taxy and all the rest but I get more satisfaction from flying a less forgiving design than I do from sitting in a trike while they land themselves

 

 

[aro]

The point is not one way is better than another, but to decide what you'll be flying long term, and only have to pay for one set of lessons to teach one technique.

You're assuming that it costs more to learn in a taildragger initially. I'm not sure that is the case (assuming that aircraft costs are similar - I'm not comparing a C152 to a Decathlon or something).

 

Another great tailwheel article:

 

http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/182654-1.html?redirected=1

 

Note that most of the tailwheel guidelines are stuff you will learn as part of learning to fly anyway, without spending extra time. Most of the tailwheel specific stuff happens in the time you tend to switch off and relax in a tricycle - but still costs you $/min. If you learn in a taildragger, you spend a few extra minutes (that you would pay for anyway) learning per lesson, and you don't know the difference. If you learn in a tricycle, you have to go back and spend a whole lot of money on flying (which is no different taildragger to tricycle) to learn those little extras.

 

Despite the RAA tricycle endorsement, there isn't a lot to learn going the other way. My main issues when switching to a nosewheel aircraft:

 

- the instructor used to complain because I would ride the outside rudder pedal in a turn while taxying, he kept telling me to keep pushing the inside pedal. When I could feel the turn in my butt I was waiting for it to tighten like a taildragger, and holding some outside rudder in anticipation.

 

- I was told I slowed down too much for turns when taxying, I should keep my speed up

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're assuming that it costs more to learn in a taildragger initially. I'm not sure that is the case (assuming that aircraft costs are similar - I'm not comparing a C152 to a Decathlon or something).

No, I was only referring to spending excess money trying to learn both in the early stages of Licence/Certificate training.

 

There are two cost areas to watch - blowout during training by wasting hours learning TWO different types, rather than one - (where you want to spend money learning different weather conditions, strips etc), and availability once you're qualified.

 

If the only aircraft at your field for the forseeable future is a tail drager, then you learn on that.

 

If the only aircraft is tricycle then that's what will be available for hire and you learn that.

 

Aircraft at schools/clubs can come and go very quickly, especially if some owner has his aircraft online, and it's an art form to look at the fleet and work out what will be there in a year or two when you are ready to hire. I was talked into spending several hundred dollars on a Grumman Tiger - 180 hp/139 kt cruise, on the grounds it was a great crosscountrty aircraft. It had a climb out angle similar to a space shuttle, so there were a few handling things to learn, but I came in one day and it was gone, and I've never seen one since.

 

 

[aro]

No, I was only referring to spending excess money trying to learn both in the early stages of Licence/Certificate training.There are two cost areas to watch - blowout during training by wasting hours learning TWO different types, rather than one - (where you want to spend money learning different weather conditions, strips etc), and availability once you're qualified.

The OP has the choice of tricycle or tailwheel examples of the same aircraft type, and specifically asked "do you think it would be easier to convert from a drager to a tricycle or the other way around."

 

My opinion is that it would be easier to learn the taildragger first (you don't have to unlearn tricycle habits) then convert to the nosewheel than vice versa.

 

Converting from a tailwheel to a nosewheel version of the same aircraft type should be a non-event - even if you get to the point of doing circuits and decide a tailwheel is not for you.

 

 

[DrZoos]

If we are speaking about which is easiest to purely convert then undoubtedly from the harder to easier

 

If we are talking about which is easiest to learn and then convert then it flips in the favour of easier to harder.

 

Personally i hold a different opinion to some of the above, but its only my opinion, thats because Im a specialist in education and training (not typing ). And that theory has been proven over and over and over including in aviation, when learning a difficult skill (and landing an aircraft is definitely a very difficult skill to learn properly) then always start with the easiest most straight forward way and easiest aircraft and then ad complications and higher order skills once the basics are mastered. Adding complications earlier then necesary has been proven in study after study to slow the learning process and in almost all cases cause the learner to have poorer outcomes and levels of achievement. This applies to both theory and motor unit development. In my 15 years as a specialist educator in several fields i have never seen a more clear example of a skill that should be taught one way first.

 

Its why we start in foxbats, its why we fly 747 much later, its why we do a TIFF first , its why we teach local flight first then navs then ...... and the lsit goes on. Im not sure why some people think a tail dragger is immune to the basics of teaching.

 

Because its been proven time and again that starting simple , allows the learner to reinforce the correct things to memory, consciousness and motor unit development(ie muscle memory) .

 

I dont think anyone in here would say that a tail-dragger is easier or easy to land for a novice. And that is the reason why it should be taught after a pilot can get the other basics right first.

 

Make your own choice, but if you really want a hairy chest then you should fly a taildragger first. You might take longer , you might find it harder, but at least you will be able to join that exclusive club of tail dragger first pilots, who have no bad habbits and far superior skills. LOL

 

Which is funny becasue in my club i never have heard a word of one being better then the other , but in here it seems to be more prevalent. Most say it in jest and it is funny.

 

In the end your not going to be a bad pilot in either, but you should take on board some of whats said .

 

PErhaps you should even think about skipping trainers altogether and go learn in a real plane like a retired Mig

 

 

[Zibi]

Because its been proven time and again that starting simple , allows the learner to reinforce the correct things to memory, consciousness and motor unit development(ie muscle memory) .

I dont think anyone in here would say that a tail-dragger is easier or easy to land for a novice. And that is the reason why it should be taught after a pilot can get the other basics right first.

 

Make your own choice, but if you really want a hairy chest then you should fly a taildragger first. You might take longer , you might find it harder, but at least you will be able to join that exclusive club of tail dragger first pilots, who have no bad habbits and far superior skills. LOL

While I agree with most of the things in your post there is one thing that I have to point out (note I fly a weightshift trike and not 3 axis, so my controls are completely different).

From what I've read so far in this thread and others, landing a tricycle gear 3 axis plane is easier than taildragger and also is possible while not doing everything right - say not using the rudder to steer during landing.

 

So to go back to your bolded part - you may in fact be reinforcing incorrect things to memory, thus making later conversion harder.

 

But as I've said I know very little about proper control of a 3 axis plane during landing, so I may be wrong.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You've assumed some incorrect operation to make your point Zibi, you'll soon come under some detailed attention if you're lazy with the rudder, and I've found it MUCH more critical in RA compared to GA aircraft. The tricycle is just more directionally stable once all wheels touch the ground, and while taxying - you don't need a mate to hold a wing.

 

Taildraggers came from the "all over field" days when you could land into wind no matter which way it was blowing. Too few runways, and narrow at that make it less hazardous for a low hours pilot with a tricycle undercarriage.