How well can "the big guys" see us

[Zibi]

It's something I've been wondering for a while - how well the pilots of much bigger planes (airliners, transport planes, military jets, etc) can see recreational planes in the air?

 

I know military fighters / jets have radars that can lock onto our planes, but do they keep them always on, does it warn them with enough time to react, that there's a trike moving at 50kts in front of them?

 

How about the civilian or even military transports? Do they only rely on the ground tower to give them position of one of us?

 

Or is it just visual?

 

I know most of the time the civilian ones will be much higher than most of us fly, but flying around Caboolture, right under the approach path to Brisbane Airport makes me wonder about this quite a bit.

 

 

[frank marriott]

TCAS - if you have a transponder.

 

 

[facthunter]

Most littlies don't have a transponder. The system works by keeping the controlled and uncontrolled separate. That is why they lose their sense of humour when you go in their airspace. Keep at least 200' below the steps that let them down to the major airports.

 

At country airports they are just like you. Look for traffic and use radio correctly. They have generally less visibility out of their cockpits, and can't look into the sun any better than you can. Nev

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Also be aware of buffer zones around controlled airspace:

 

1NM OCTA up to 2000'

 

2NM OCTA 2001-5000'

 

4NM OCTA 5001-(10,000' for RA-Aus)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well it works both ways, I had a windscreen full of red 737 one morning as I was tracking by Townsville class C, and it wasn't me in the wrong place, or at the wrong altitude. I was below the required 2500' with the correct QNH, and the 737 who I had been monitoring was cleared, not below 3000'.

 

He passed in front of me probabily not 200' above, close enough that I was seeing if I recognised any of the passengers looking out of the cabin windows !!.....

 

I do operate a transponder and I'm sure he had a TCAS alert on me, as I would expect. Sometimes I think they just come down for a look. It was fairly early and possibly before Townsville tower was active. The ridge that he passed across is around 2700 ' so he didn't have a whole heap of clearance there either. Not a real drama for me but I was watching for him and expected him to be quite a bit higher thats all.

 

Often when operating around the Proserpine airport zone we have to interact with arriving and departing burners. The radio comm is all good and I'll often drop down to a 1000' over a known landmark to give them approach clearance. By the tone of their response I know they always appreciate that, even though I also know they have me on TCAS. Theses guys and gals are doing a non-controlled visual into Prossy so do appreciate any assistance with other traffic I'm sure.... Another big concern around the Townsville area is camouflaged military traffic, particularly helicopters.....they appear out of the blue, at any height, and often are not on normal channel that you are required to be on. When you call them for a heads up, no response......If we hit one or have a near-miss, guess who's fault it will be ?..........Maj...

 

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Also just outside Townsville Class C (Burdiken/ayr area). I have had three US marine F18s pass very close in front of me at the same altitude. They altered course to do so, and just came by to have a look, one after another !...I was squawking 1200 on TX, and I 'm sure they either had me, or Townsville TWR had given them a heads up. Was there some controller in the tower laughing his head off ?!.....

 

No warning to me of course (on area freq) that three fast jets were about to pass 200' feet in front, and since I had a passenger on board, I elected to do a rapid drop in altitude and course change to avoid possible wake turbulance.....................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Or is it just visual?

OCTA that's all there is, not many trikes have transponders. My recommendation is if you hear a high performance aircraft on CTAF, let them know briefly and succintly where you are, lest you end up a hood ornament.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Also just outside Townsville Class C (Burdiken/ayr area). I have had three US marine F18s pass very close in front of me at the same altitude. They altered course to do so, and just came by to have a look, one after another !...I was squawking 1200 on TX, and I 'm sure they either had me, or Townsville TWR had given them a heads up. Was there some controller in the tower laughing his head off ?!.....No warning to me of course (on area freq) that three fast jets were about to pass 200' feet in front, and since I had a passenger on board, I elected to do a rapid drop in altitude and course change to avoid possible wake turbulance.....................Maj...

Ross

 

Ayr - CTA LL8500 - OCTA , TL is not watching. BN CEN (120.55) may have had you on radar but be aware that military jet fighters do not operate on VHF.

 

The only reason they can be heard on VHF around TL (and not low level behind Mt Elliott) is via a repeater - see

 

ERSA ATS COMMUNICATIONS FACILITIES (6) 3

 

"3. Automatic retransmit FAC exists BTN FLW FREQ: 126.8/307.8; 134.1/335.8; 118.3/257.8; 121.8/264.6; 128.1/236.1 "

 

I have no idea about the capabilities of their onboard radar, but given their role I would suspect it would be pretty good.

 

 

[facthunter]

If they are flying low, their radar may be more at terrain avoidance than avoiding you . Flying lower than them is not best for wake turbulence, but you have better visibility. I don't like the idea of being anywhere near these guys. Wake turbulence has put mid sized Jets on their back at times. It might easily crack your bugsmasher up. Nev

 

 

[rankamateur]

since I had a passenger on board, I elected to do a rapid drop in altitude and course change to avoid possible wake turbulance.....................Maj...

And if you didn't have a passenger? Just ride right through it and see how she handles it?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... My recommendation is if you hear a high performance aircraft on CTAF, let them know briefly and succintly where you are, lest you end up a hood ornament.

Good idea, but what about when on Area Frequency? Should we little aircraft bother Brisbane and Melbourne Centre with position calls when we are over 5,000' ?

 

 

[frank marriott]

Good idea, but what about when on Area Frequency? Should we little aircraft bother Brisbane and Melbourne Centre with position calls when we are over 5,000' ?

Short answer no. VFR see and avoid. Full reporting for VFR was removed as an option years ago (Dick Smith time at CASA). See AIP, if a conflict exists, then report, otherwise listen. Multiple position reports from non conflicting traffic (as happens too often) just clogs the frequency for no benefit.

 

One can argue the pros and cons of the present system, but it is what we have, so we have to live with it. Personally I always submitted a flight plan and operated full reporting (VFR) when it was available but in the current improved system the option is not available.

 

History is interesting to read but it is still history.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Just looking at Ozrunways, the 'encounter' happened in the area marked Jerona on the Townsville VTC about 25 nm south coastal from Townsville airport. Bottom of class C at this point is 4500' and from memory we were a bit below 2000'. No doubt the three Hornets had departed Townsville and were tracking to the South coastal. I can only imagine they were planning to stay around that altitude as they were more in level cruise mode rather than rapid climb to altitude mode. There was no sign of any evasive action on their part even though they were looking straight at us., as they passed in front. I got tone on missile 2 but didn't have time to launch.

 

I feel they knew we were there as No 1 and 2 pilots definitly looked us over as they passed, No 3 didn't get that chance. They passed within 500 mts in front of us in line astern. There would have been visual line of sight with Townsville radar at that point, and I assume Townsville had my TX squark of 1200, and so had passed my position and height onto the pilots. They passed in front at exactly the same height. As we were all in G class airspace in that position, it is see and be seen rules. However we are at a disadvantage in our craft against fast jets doing several hundred Kts. They were US marine F18s who had been visiting the area for about a week. I can only hope they enjoyed the brief encounter as much as we did. !..................Maj....

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Good idea, but what about when on Area Frequency? Should we little aircraft bother Brisbane and Melbourne Centre with position calls when we are over 5,000' ?

Probably not required for the reasons outlined by Maj above. My suggestion when operating VFR above 5000 would be to offset your track to the right by 1nm when navigating with the aid of a GPS.

 

 

[flying dog]

Ok, not wanting to spread "stories" but here is one I heard when I was learning to fly:

 

(repeated as best I can remember)

 

Up near Maroochie:

 

A school has their planes flying. There is a LARGE training area just east of the Glass house mountains.

 

A student was up and flying. The air force had a plane (F18 - maybe) flying around there too. Ok, maybe not. But it was a FAST plane and flying LOW!

 

It scared the $hit out of the student - flying solo.

 

Getting back to the airport, the CFI was informed. He rang the people to find out what was going on.

 

Air force: "Why didn't you have a transponder?"

 

CFI "the plane doesn't need one, it is not in CTA. It is flying in the TRAINING area."

 

Air force: "So why is that our problem?"

 

CFI "It isn't, unless you hit our plane, then it would be TOTALLY your problem."

 

The call suddenly ended.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

On transponders......I picked mine up from a fellow aviator at Montpelier who needed the cash at the time. It is a microair with an ACK encoder and came with all cabling and antennae, ready to fit. . I wasn't looking for one, but the price was so right ($1000 cash !) that I couldn't pass it up, and didn't !..It was current gear and retail price for everything would have been around $3600 or so. It has worked perfect since I fitted it, and had it calibrated.

 

I fitted it mainly with collision avoidance in mind, and I squark VFR 1200 most of the time. As I fly a lot around Townsville Class C, Townsville tower I imagine, does know where I am most of the time, with my altitude also, if they happen to be interested. Also out of the area when travelling, TCAS comes into play with other aircraft so equipped.

 

When operating down around Proserpine airport with burners coming and going, they are happy to know you have a TX and also squawking 1200, and I'm sure their TCAS works for them also, letting them know you are where you have said you are.

 

Could I operate without it, as I did before ?....sure, and there are some flights where for various reasons I'll turn it off. Am I happy I fitted it at all ?.......sure, it does give piece of mind on many occasions. However without picking it up at the special price, being in the right place at the right time, there is no way I would have been able to afford the additional expense on additional equipment.

 

A few years back a group of flyers here were given special permission to fly into Townsville airbase for an airshow. It wouldn't have happened with out the TX and assigned code. We found ourselves operating side by side with 737s in a military and commercial control zone, and it all went well.

 

Without a doubt another piece of safety and peace of mind...if you can afford it...but certainly still doesn't in any way replace the constant 'see and avoid' requirement, as demonstrated in the above example with the F 18s....................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Ok, not wanting to spread "stories" but here is one I heard when I was learning to fly:(repeated as best I can remember)

Up near Maroochie:

 

A school has their planes flying. There is a LARGE training area just east of the Glass house mountains.

 

A student was up and flying. The air force had a plane (F18 - maybe) flying around there too. Ok, maybe not. But it was a FAST plane and flying LOW!

 

It scared the $hit out of the student - flying solo.

 

Getting back to the airport, the CFI was informed. He rang the people to find out what was going on.

 

Air force: "Why didn't you have a transponder?"

 

CFI "the plane doesn't need one, it is not in CTA. It is flying in the TRAINING area."

 

Air force: "So why is that our problem?"

 

CFI "It isn't, unless you hit our plane, then it would be TOTALLY your problem.".

Yes this is a bit of a problem. You would think that when they are operating in 'common' VFR airspace that they should also have a responsibility to the safety of other users,....instead of the 'watch out here we come' attitude so often demonstrated. You would expect that at least they should be monitoring the area frequency for basic communications with other users.

 

Another example....a few months ago myself and another aircraft were transiting coastal in a northerly direction past Innisfail Airport NQ, in clear VFR conditions.. As there is a lot of training in the area plus jump ops, I made a VFR position report to let them know we were coming by, with present position, height, and tracking intentions. We were close to, but clear of the airport traffic area, and I was quite happily tracking with Ozrunways....In an unexpected reply, a CH -47 Chinnook using some strange army call sign, came back and asked if I was familiar with Innisfail IFR approach !?....my reply...'negative !'....(I wasn't even aware that this small country airport had an IFR approach !.)...The Chinook then replied

 

with some strange position report in IFR military lingo, that neither of us understand a word of.

 

My reply then was, ' Well you guys know where we are '....they then reported having us visual and clear. Apparently the army can go around and 'activate' an 'IFR approach' for their training purposes at any airport of their choosing that day. They then expect us to fully co-operate with them (and know their lingo ), so they also should be prepared to fully operate with us when they come into our 'common' airspace, for the safety of all......................Maj...

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Yes this is a bit of a problem. You would think that when they are operating in 'common' VFR airspace that they should also have a responsibility to the safety of other users,....instead of the 'watch out here we come' attitude so often demonstrated. You would expect that at least they should be monitoring the area frequency for basic communication...Apparently the army can go around and 'activate' an 'IFR approach' for their training purposes at any airport of their choosing that day. They then expect us to fully co-operate with them (and know their lingo ), so they also should be prepared to fully operate with us when they come into our 'common' airspace, for the safety of all......................Maj...

This deserves a whole new initiative from civilian flyers. Our training needs to allow us to communicate clearly with the military. Their training needs to ensure they don't smack into us.

It's the Australian Way that a Royal Commission into a major collision would recommend sweeping reforms to airspace rules- after the event. Let's prevent that disaster from happening.

 

 

[frank marriott]

"Apparently the army can go around and 'activate' an 'IFR approach' for their training purposes at any airport of their choosing that day"

 

Not quite: NDB & RNAV H24 published in the ERSA.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Just a tip. If you are using ozrunways for your maps then you can turn on the IFR waypoints should you wish from the tab on the left side of screen.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Frank that's all good , however why should I, flying VFR on a perfect VFR day (we can only be VFR anyway) have to work out some IFR approach, because some wanker decides he wants to play IFR, on a perfectly clear day ?... He's got eyes also, and we were never at anytime near, or crossing over any approach line into Innisfail. We were tracking parallel and well to the east of it.

 

Had I not made my VFR position call (optional), he would not have even known we were anywhere in the area. It's CTAF airspace, and the onus is just as much on him to 'see and be seen' as it is on us , and all other VFR users.

 

To his credit he was actually monitoring the VFR area frequency (126.7) as required. I have on occasions encountered other Chinooks in this same area who have not been on CTAF freq, and just boring along at 80 kts waiting to hit somebody !.. CTAF means ...'Common traffic advisory frequency'......and as I said in another post they are just as responsible in that airspace as we are to conduct a ' see and avoid ' watch...Additionally, there are both Ultralight and Parachute symbols at Innisfail airport , so it's even more important that they do so.........Maj...

 

 

[frank marriott]

I only said if you wish not should. It is merely an option available (with no extra cost)

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Well it works both ways, I had a windscreen full of red 737 one morning as I was tracking by Townsville class C, and it wasn't me in the wrong place, or at the wrong altitude. I was below the required 2500' with the correct QNH, and the 737 who I had been monitoring was cleared, not below 3000'.He passed in front of me probabily not 200' above, close enough that I was seeing if I recognised any of the passengers looking out of the cabin windows !!.....

 

I do operate a transponder and I'm sure he had a TCAS alert on me, as I would expect. Sometimes I think they just come down for a look. It was fairly early and possibly before Townsville tower was active. The ridge that he passed across is around 2700 ' so he didn't have a whole heap of clearance there either. Not a real drama for me but I was watching for him and expected him to be quite a bit higher thats all.

 

Often when operating around the Proserpine airport zone we have to interact with arriving and departing burners. The radio comm is all good and I'll often drop down to a 1000' over a known landmark to give them approach clearance. By the tone of their response I know they always appreciate that, even though I also know they have me on TCAS. Theses guys and gals are doing a non-controlled visual into Prossy so do appreciate any assistance with other traffic I'm sure.... Another big concern around the Townsville area is camouflaged military traffic, particularly helicopters.....they appear out of the blue, at any height, and often are not on normal channel that you are required to be on. When you call them for a heads up, no response......If we hit one or have a near-miss, guess who's fault it will be ?..........Maj...

 

Ross,. . . . good article bloke,. . . . .

Our militaries use UHF radio only unfortunately, so we can't talk to them directly,. . . . shame that ! ! ! dunno whether your khaki warriors do the same, you didn't say. The RAF don't usually carry VHF, Except in the case of the Red Arrows display team, who have to deal with lots of Civvy airspace whilst transiting mostly at low level between gigs in the airshow season, but tornados and Eurofighters,. . . ? forget it.

 

As for Civvy jet jobs, well, they drop out of controlled airspace into the open F.I.R. regularly around our airfield, where the lowest protected airspace is FL 45. . . . this is, well, as far as I am concerned, so dangerous as to rate as bloody stupid, especially in the summer months when they have been known to pass over our very busy airfield as low as 2500 ft,. .. with microlight aircraft operating in the area higher than this. . . . it is normally to speed up ops into Birmingham I realise, but I wonder what the passengers would think if they knew that his was going on on a regular basis.

 

I personally witnessed a 737 going beneath me last year, I was at 2800 feet on local qnh, not unreasonable when the base of the protected airway was another 1,700 feet above me,. . . . Yes yes yes, I KNOW. . . . an airliner is ALLOWED to descend outside controlled airspace without special permission if it helps with a visual approach,. . . I'm just whingeing about the lack of commonsense inherent in this activity, when the sky is full of guys like me in toy aeroplanes, operating without any parental guidance from big brother. . .

 

OK end of rant.

 

In the event of a collision,. . . . who's fault will it be I wonder. . . . . .

 

Hmmmm

 

Phil

 

 

[facthunter]

Descending on top of another aircraft has to be one of the most dangerous possibilities out there. We had a stated position here years ago of not doing "straight ins" for RPT at regional airports. I have reversed my view on this as the less time in the circuit the better. Also the "littlies" should only have to look in one sector for arriving aircraft. This is complicated by many regionals performing downwind landings and take offs to make their tracking more expeditious. This puts an emphasis on good radio work. I believe an aircraft landing contrary to"normal"circuit direction should carry the onus of responsibility for safety more than when they conform.. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

This deserves a whole new initiative from civilian flyers. Our training needs to allow us to communicate clearly with the military.

What are you suggesting.

There seems to be a whole lot of awareness missing when operating around fast and heavy aircraft.