How well can "the big guys" see us

[Old Koreelah]

What are you suggesting. There seems to be a whole lot of awareness missing when operating around fast and heavy aircraft.

Frank I am suggesting that we have little idea of when or where military aircraft are operating. Not everyone looks up Notams before going for a fly. The charts show huge zones where the defence forces may be flying, but we can't hear them and they can't hear us. So far so good...

 

 

[MarcK]

If you want to get on a jet buy a ticket all this talk of hitchhiking is crazy!.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Not everyone looks up Notams before going for a fly.

You may have identified one of the problems right there.

 

 

[M61A1]

I would like to believe that these guys, especially the military, are a little more informed than we are led to believe.

 

I have been on comms in a couple of military ferry flights (OCTA) after maintenance, we were constantly updated by the local tower as to the locations of any possible conflicts, even those that weren't in communication with the tower. Even when the local restricted area is deactivated, all the military flights announce their presence properly.

 

That said, I found it very difficult to see a Super Puma at my altitude, that I knew was there (radio), until about the 3 mile mark.

 

 

[frank marriott]

AIP GEN 3.3-3 , Sub sect 2.3

 

2.3 Preflight Information (CAR 239)

 

2.3.1 Before beginning a flight, the pilot in command must study all available information appropriate to the intended operation. This requirement includes all Head Office and FIR NOTAM applicable to the en route phase of flight and location specific NOTAM for aerodromes

 

 

[dodo]

Frank,

 

that is true, but if I am flying around the local area, having read the NOTAMS, doe that mean that the military helicopter I see just isn't there, despite my seeing him?

 

The problem is that they appear out of nowhere - sometimes with radio - but even then are difficult to understand - they don't use our terminology, callsigns, or landmarks.

 

I haven't come too close to one, but their radio calls are close to useless.

 

dodo

 

 

[frank marriott]

OK, No worries I must lead a sheltered live, in all my years of flying in out & around TL military/civil control I have only struck very precise and professional radio procedures from military aircraft. I can't say that about all (all be it a minority) other traffic. Heh I'm happy, keep flying, if you don't like my observations, fine, just forget you read them - but be sure to cover your backside if something does go wrong because non complying can be costly.

 

Helicopters fast?

 

 

[dodo]

Frank, I accept your observations. But the few times I have met military traffic, they have not made normal calls (and there were no NOTAMS, if that matters.)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

There generally are no specific notams relating to military ops in standard CTAF G class airspace, where if you read back through most of the posts , that's where the unplanned 'encounters' are occurring, with the military boys not always being on the normal CTAF channel, that the rest of us are expected to conform to.

 

I mean you don't read in notams that ' a four engined Orion with gear down is going to make an unplanned low pass over the runway at Starke Field, on the deck , whilst practising sneaking into the Townsville CTA undetected under the radar ' do you ?....this actually occurred !......

 

We have our normal ERSA type procedures which we follow, but they are playing a different game in common airspace. This is where the problem is..............Maj....

 

 

[tafisama]

Maybe just as a suggestion Flying Clubs close to Military Airfields , Airports or Airspace should have someone to act as an Airspace Officer who can on regular basis contact the Air force to find out if they will be doing anything outside the norm.I dont know if this is practical or not but I think if the Air force is willing to co-operate then its should work out fine.If they dont want to then it needs another approach.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Ross,. . . . good article bloke,. . . . .Our militaries use UHF radio only unfortunately, so we can't talk to them directly,. . . . shame that ! ! ! dunno whether your khaki warriors do the same, you didn't say. The RAF don't usually carry VHF, Except in the case of the Red Arrows display team, who have to deal with lots of Civvy airspace whilst transiting mostly at low level between gigs in the airshow season, but tornados and Eurofighters,. . . ? forget it.

 

As for Civvy jet jobs, well, they drop out of controlled airspace into the open F.I.R. regularly around our airfield, where the lowest protected airspace is FL 45. . . . this is, well, as far as I am concerned, so dangerous as to rate as bloody stupid, especially in the summer months when they have been known to pass over our very busy airfield as low as 2500 ft,. .. with microlight aircraft operating in the area higher than this. . . . it is normally to speed up ops into Birmingham I realise, but I wonder what the passengers would think if they knew that his was going on on a regular basis.

 

I personally witnessed a 737 going beneath me last year, I was at 2800 feet on local qnh, not unreasonable when the base of the protected airway was another 1,700 feet above me,. . . . Yes yes yes, I KNOW. . . . an airliner is ALLOWED to descend outside controlled airspace without special permission if it helps with a visual approach,. . . I'm just whingeing about the lack of commonsense inherent in this activity, when the sky is full of guys like me in toy aeroplanes, operating without any parental guidance from big brother. . .

 

OK end of rant.

 

In the event of a collision,. . . . who's fault will it be I wonder. . . . . .

 

Hmmmm

 

Phil

Whose fault? Look up the San Diego Cessna 172 / 727 collision; it will be that all over again. Get yourself a Mode S transponder.

 

 

[DrZoos]

I asked my cousin this exact questions on FB, he is ex Qlink Dash8 and Small Jets for Qantas

 

His answer is they can only get us on TCAS if we have a transponder and its switched on , and they usually know we are there before TCAS is in range as ATC for the area who are also monitoring traffic let them know, even for un towered airports. aparently ATC will say QLink ### please be aware you have traffic at Y### at alt ____ and alt ____ , call signs ___ and ____. They are not using radar at all, only TCAS thats looking for transponders. He said even with a tansponder its a bit sketchy sometimes as smaller aircraft tend to be pretty unpredictable in heading and alt. Where as they are always trying to manage passenger comfort and safety (no sudden or sharp changes in heading or alt) by following set paths and by making slow manoeuvres.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

The simple fact is that the pilot's field of view in most transport-category aircraft is rather limited (also in things like Cessna 210 Centurions; it's a bit like sitting in a letterbox, looking out through the slot). Also, the crews are pretty busy; they have a lot of challenge:response checklists to get through, plus radio procedures, and they are generally covering the ground at 3 to 4 miles a minute. In a recreational aircraft, one usually has a much better field of view (though not if you are sitting in the shade under a wing - always remember to lift the wingtip when you look to the side) - and the real danger is being run down by a descending "heavy" that can't see you because it's flying nose-up, at what it a slow speed for it, tho about twice your cruise speed.

 

 

[Zibi]

The simple fact is that the pilot's field of view in most transport-category aircraft is rather limited (also in things like Cessna 210 Centurions; it's a bit like sitting in a letterbox, looking out through the slot). Also, the crews are pretty busy; they have a lot of challenge:response checklists to get through, plus radio procedures, and they are generally covering the ground at 3 to 4 miles a minute. In a recreational aircraft, one usually has a much better field of view (though not if you are sitting in the shade under a wing - always remember to lift the wingtip when you look to the side) - and the real danger is being run down by a descending "heavy" that can't see you because it's flying nose-up, at what it a slow speed for it, tho about twice your cruise speed.

That's exactly what prompted my original question - in a trike I have pretty much unrestricted view in any direction accept for directly up and it is still pretty hard to notice planes, unless you know they are there.

 

Now if you take into account a limited view out of even a small 3 axis plane or a tiny window in a airliner add much higher speeds, relying on only visual scan has me a bit worried.

 

 

[jetjr]

Good way to make regionals look out around small airfields is to make plenty of calls. Anything id with "Jabiru, skyfox, Sportstar, Glider " etc at the start makes them pucker. When requested tell them you dont have a transponder and they will get very concerned even holding for long periods whilst you land. BUT this is ones who are on the right freq.

 

Some have company policies to change to CTAF of destination RPT airport long in advance and as a result arent listening to area freq as they fly over many smaller airfields enroute.

 

I agree with Military guys using non std calls and localities, especially overseas based ones. Had US crewed C130 flying below 2000ft straight across central NSW, he appeared not to have much idea what was around him including small airfields with gliders up. He seemed very surprised when I told him I thought I was just ahead and above him.

 

NOTAMS are essential reading but seems military block out huge areas and levels for extended times.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Good way to make regionals look out around small airfields is to make plenty of calls. Anything id with "Jabiru, skyfox, Sportstar, Glider " etc at the start makes them pucker. When requested tell them you dont have a transponder and they will get very concerned even holding for long periods whilst you land. BUT this is ones who are on the right freq.Some have company policies to change to CTAF of destination RPT airport long in advance and as a result arent listening to area freq as they fly over many smaller airfields enroute.

I agree with Military guys using non std calls and localities, especially overseas based ones. Had US crewed C130 flying below 2000ft straight across central NSW, he appeared not to have much idea what was around him including small airfields with gliders up. He seemed very surprised when I told him I thought I was just ahead and above him.

 

NOTAMS are essential reading but seems military block out huge areas and levels for extended times.

Well, by the sounds of it, nothing much has fundamentally changed since I learned to fly in 1963. There are less aircraft on the local frequency at any given time nowadays, but some of them are travelling quite a bit faster. What HAS changed, is the advent of Mode S transponders (if you have a Mode C one, that will be OK for a few more years, I understand) and an altitude encoder; but the consequences for everybody of a collision between a recreational aircraft and a "heavy" are so serious that it is simply irresponsible to not have, and use, a transponder if your aircraft electrical system can drive one - and even a Rotax 582 can.

 

Good radio procedures certainly help, but there's only one channel and voice is a very slow and imprecise way to convey position information; so we will not be relieved of this hazard until we have automatic transmission of GPS position (ADSB OUT) and display of threatening traffic on a moving map (ADSB IN). Things like OzRunways are moving towards this capability now; the snag at present is the high cost of the required GPS receiver. The gliding movement is moving to a system called FLARM, which is based on low-cost commercial GPS, but like any of these systems, it's only useful if every aircraft has one and it's turned on.

 

This stuff is not mandatory as yet for recreational aircraft - tho it likely will be within a decade, and GFA insist on FLARM for gliders in competitions, but you CAN get protection right now, from being run-down by a civil-registered "heavy" by having a suitable transponder, and using it. ADSB out will require a Mode S transponder, as far as I can discover, so if you are purchasing one, nothing else makes sense.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

On transponders......I picked mine up from a fellow aviator at Montpelier who needed the cash at the time. It is a microair with an ACK encoder and came with all cabling and antennae, ready to fit. . I wasn't looking for one, but the price was so right ($1000 cash !) that I couldn't pass it up, and didn't !..It was current gear and retail price for everything would have been around $3600 or so. It has worked perfect since I fitted it, and had it calibrated.

Just for others who may consider such an approach.....I don't believe the microair is compatible with extended squitter mode S unless it is sent back and "modified" by Microair....what does "Not compatible mean" In this case I believe the transponder can lock up and appear to be all Ok but it does absolutely nothing and is therefore useless as a TCAS trigger....

 

I'm not saying Maj that yours is or isn't affected but I suspect a lot of transponders aren't Ok, and most will never know unless they are aware of what ASA is doing as they roll out ADSB further......

 

The Microair website used to have a blurb on return and upgrade but I cant find it now (Jabiru less is more approach??)

 

Today, I wouldn't put a non mode S capable transponder in my aircraft.....I have a Microair transponder that is effectively left turned off because the cost to unfreeze the software is too great IMHO

 

Actually the good thing about WWW, once out there you cant make it disappear.....Heres the story using the "Way back machine" capability http://web.archive.org/web/20061215012824/http://www.microair.com.au/admin/uploads/T2000SFLSBAdvisoryAugust2006.pdf playing with the way back webservice can probably dig up the costs back then to have the transponders retro fitted to be Mode S ignoring.....

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

You will need to check the "baro" function at a set interval and whenever you make contact with ATC and report altitude and it is out of tolerance. The other concern is when there is a lot of traffic around as to how the "clutter" will be handled. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Andy I have on a couple of occasions asked Townsville TWR to verify my TX return and height displayed, and it has always been well recieved and height displayed within calibration range.

 

I have also asked commercial aircraft if they have me on TCAS and they have replied in the affirmative every time'........guess I just got lucky I suppose............Maj...

 

 

[M61A1]

There generally are no specific notams relating to military ops in standard CTAF G class airspace, where if you read back through most of the posts , that's where the unplanned 'encounters' are occurring, with the military boys not always being on the normal CTAF channel, that the rest of us are expected to conform to.I mean you don't read in notams that ' a four engined Orion with gear down is going to make an unplanned low pass over the runway at Starke Field, on the deck , whilst practising sneaking into the Townsville CTA undetected under the radar ' do you ?....this actually occurred !......

We have our normal ERSA type procedures which we follow, but they are playing a different game in common airspace. This is where the problem is..............Maj....

I had a bit of a chat on this subject today,with one of our more senior army pilots today. He finds it difficult to believe there's a problem (not necessarily up north).

1. It is standard procedure for them to be on the area frequency, just is it is for us.

 

2. Even a dirty old Kiowa has about 5 different radios that are monitored simultaneously(HF, multiple VHF, UHF and some special encrypted stuff sometimes), others have more, and they often have some form of ATC guidance even if they're not in CTA, telling them where traffic is.

 

3. They spend a lot of time under 200 feet, so, why would he run into any of us down there.

 

I have been on a Blackhawk, from Townsville to Oakey, via Mackay and Rockhampton, aside from the first bit, where we in control of Townsville ground, we wouldn't have been over 300AGL all the way. Just another reason to observe the 500' lower limit.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I had a bit of a chat on this subject today,with one of our more senior army pilots today. He finds it difficult to believe there's a problem (not necessarily up north).1. It is standard procedure for them to be on the area frequency, just is it is for us.

2. Even a dirty old Kiowa has about 5 different radios that are monitored simultaneously(HF, multiple VHF, UHF and some special encrypted stuff sometimes), others have more, and they often have some form of ATC guidance even if they're not in CTA, telling them where traffic is.

 

3. They spend a lot of time under 200 feet, so, why would he run into any of us down there.

 

I have been on a Blackhawk, from Townsville to Oakey, via Mackay and Rockhampton, aside from the first bit, where we in control of Townsville ground, we wouldn't have been over 300AGL all the way. Just another reason to observe the 500' lower limit.

That's all good, and nice to hear them acknowledge that they do monitor the appropriate CTAF frequency, maybe they would however like to respond more often on it, when called upon by common airspace users.

 

When they fly over or through airfield traffic areas at low altitude, is when they may expect to encounter us at altitudes below 500' , as we descend or climb out during landing, or conduct training activities ...additionally, those members who have a LL endo have every right to be down there also.........Maj...

 

 

[M61A1]

I forgot to mention that they also have their own special maps (literally titled xxxx special), that have areas that they are supposed to avoid at low level and the detail is out in the country even shows individual buildings, farm silos and such. As for responding to traffic, it's really only necessary if there is potential conflict, even in the CASA brochure, "ask yourself, is this transmission really necessary". Good comms is important, but that includes not clogging the airways, with stuff you don't need.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Not everyone looks up Notams before going for a fly.

I read them and even then it may not be totally clear. As you said 'so far so good', but then again I'm not buzzing around at low level!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I forgot to mention that they also have their own special maps (literally titled xxxx special), that have areas that they are supposed to avoid at low level and the detail is out in the country even shows individual buildings, farm silos and such. As for responding to traffic, it's really only necessary if there is potential conflict, even in the CASA brochure, "ask yourself, is this transmission really necessary". Good comms is important, but that includes not clogging the airways, with stuff you don't need.

Sorry, but exchange of info relating to collision avoidance, actual position, height, and intention, is stuff you need and should be shared as required, not only if there is a 'potential conflict'. It may well be too late by then. I make VFR position calls as I feel they are warranted for safety, and will continue to do so. In no way does it come under the heading of 'clogging the airways'...and often after making one, other aircraft will respond (both civil and military) which often are aircraft you weren't aware were there at all, or they of your presence. That is simply increasing safety and awareness for all users.....................Maj....

 

 

[DrZoos]

I was listening to LiveATC app on the weekend with my son, we tuned into, several atc including camden, and i got to say the random rubbish being jibber jabbered on that was ridiculous....they where trying to draw the atc op into their garbage , and he wasnt having a bar of it, but i was surprised he allowed it to go on.