Not another one - KR2 crash near Tumut

[Kyle Communications]

looks like another fatal down near Tumut according to news 24 although he took off on saturday he was found today

 

 

[rankamateur]

http://www.watoday.com.au/act-news/one-person-dead-in-tumut-plane-crash-20131007-2v3qg.html seems that even if we have no intention of talking on them, we all should carry a couple of funtioning mobile phones. Remember mobile phone signals from Des's passengers phones were used to locate the Riama.

[Guest Maj Millard]

KR-2 ...article didn't mention wether GA or RAA rego.......condolences ............Maj...

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

VH-CTE

 

 

[rankamateur]

KR-2 ...article didn't mention wether GA or RAA rego.......condolences ............Maj...

Doesn't matter much Ross, we lost another pilot!

 

 

[dodo]

Ben was a good bloke. I will miss him. I don't know any more than what is reported in the news.

 

dodo

 

 

[jwcsmb_123]

Ben was a true gentlemen, lost way to soon!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Doesn't matter much Ross, we lost another pilot!

Rank amateur, I was making no comment on the abilities of the pilot, my comment was in respect to the aircraft which was mentioned in the press as being an Ultralight................

 

 

[rankamateur]

Rank amateur, I was making no comment on the abilities of the pilot, my comment was in respect to the aircraft which was mentioned in the press as being an Ultralight................

I understand Ross, I am just rivetting away trying to pretend this new hobby of mine isn't killing way too many pilots, it doesn't matter what is written on their wing. I know from your point of view there are differences in maintenance standards and training but who ever they are they are still friends and family, there just aren't enough degrees of separation in Australian aviation. Just as the media don't differentiate accurately between recreational and GA accidents, neither do members of my family differentiate their worry when they hear a seemingly un-ending stream of light aircraft accidents reported in the media, and I can't imagine they are any different to any other family.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

My mrs used to freak out about accidents she saw on the tv.....now she doesn't she asks what happened and that's the end of the matter....after you have been flying for a while the family settles down Steve

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I understand Ross, I am just rivetting away trying to pretend this new hobby of mine isn't killing way too many pilots, it doesn't matter what is written on their wing. I know from your point of view there are differences in maintenance standards and training but who ever they are they are still friends and family, there just aren't enough degrees of separation in Australian aviation. Just as the media don't differentiate accurately between recreational and GA accidents, neither do members of my family differentiate their worry when they hear a seemingly un-ending stream of light aircraft accidents reported in the media, and I can't imagine they are any different to any other family.

Rankamateur, I sort of understand where you are coming from. I have been dealing with it on a family level since 1984, which was the 'heyday' if you like of our sport. We lost more than one member from our UL club back then, and had also one double fatality to deal with.Some were very close friends and good pilots, who went way too early because of bad equipment. One who we were supporting on his way to a fly-in simply didn't arrive, having crashed and died enroute.

 

Before that it was ten years of skydiving, and there was no shortage there either. At on point we all called it 'Sport Death' instead of 'Sport Parachuting', as it was commonly referred to back then.

 

Still on any weekend, or over any other period you wish to study, it is always way outclassed by the average road toll, which I believe we have all become very sensitised to, and barely bat an eyelid at anymore unless its a multiple fatality crash involving one or two families, with the mangled remains of what were automobiles flashed for us on the TV.

 

For the media however, a good old simple plane crash wins hands down every time, so we rarely escape the details of 'yet another' plane crash, especially one where the plane 'plummeted to the ground' after the engine stopped !............ Still the numbers are in our favour , and you are in more danger of dying on the drive to and from the airport.................Maj...

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

ATSB have started the investigation http://www.atsb.com.au/publications/investigation_reports/2013/aair/ao-2013-174.aspx

 

 

 

Collision with terrain involving Rand Robinson KR-2, VH-CTE, 14 km W Tumut Airport NSW on 5 October 2013

 

During a private flight from a private airstrip near Tumut NSW to Holbrook NSW, the aircraft collided with terrain. The pilot died in the accident. The ATSB was notified of the accident on Monday, 7 October 2013 and deployed two investigators, with specialisations in engineering and aircraft operations. They arrived at the accident site later that day. A further two investigators, with specialisations in engineering, have been deployed and they expected to arrive at the accident site this morning (Tuesday, 8 October 2013).

 

 

 

 

 

Over the next few days the team will examine the wreckage and accident site, interview witnesses, and collect maintenance and pilot records. The investigators are seeking witness reports that might assist the investigation. Witnesses are asked to call the ATSB on 1800 020 616.

 

 

 

 

Further updates will be provided as significant information comes to hand.

 

 

 

 

The investigation is continuing.

 

------------

 

Hopefully this will give the family & friends some answers. Our thoughts are with them.

 

 

Sue

 

 

[68volksy]

Another motorcyclist died coming up the Clyde on the weekend and the media could hardly bother wasting their breath in reporting it...

 

 

[facthunter]

Planes are more sensational than motorcycles. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

In respect to the KR-2 accident, and I don't know anymore details than I have read above and in the ATSB site. I am thinking of another KR-2 fatal in the States recently, that I read about, where the owner suffered an inflight vert fin failure, which sounded like a possible weak link on this design.

 

There were other contributing factors inasmuch as it was being flown by a new inexperienced KR-2 pilot, and he probabily exceeded the recommended turbulance penetration speed in rough air. There may have been similar failures also in the past. Not sure if this was even a factor in this case.....................Maj...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Still on any weekend, or over any other period you wish to study, it is always way outclassed by the average road toll, which I believe we have all become very sensitised to, and barely bat an eyelid at anymore unless its a multiple fatality crash involving one or two families, with the mangled remains of what were automobiles flashed for us on the TV.Still the numbers are in our favour , and you are in more danger of dying on the drive to and from the airport.................Maj...

Within an industry I like to just look at simple statistics - for example if 47 truck drivers are dying in Victoria, it's an easy next step to group the causes, and then one of those groups might offer an opportunity to change a regulation or a specification.

 

However, if you want to compare an interest group like recreational flying to the road toll, looking at the hard numbers of say 8 versus 2000 doesn't tell us anything, so you have to drill down to fatalities per hour of operation, and then Light Aircraft flying doesn't so good compared to the road toll.

 

In terms of fatalities per year, medical negligence has just reached and even standing with the road toll.

 

The old one about dying on the way to the airport has been around for years, and has no substance. If you were to compare light aircraft fatalities per participant (maybe 12,000 in Australia) with travelling to and from the airfield per participant (which will be the same 12,000), then the flying fatalities will be close to 100% of the combined total.

 

Bringing the press into it is pointless, because their reports aren't statistically useful, and our eyes will zap on to a plane crash very critically, where the average member of the population will not even notice it, but may well write a letter to the editor about some trees being chopped down.

 

Going back to the simple statistics I mentioned - the who isn't going to be coming home for dinner tonight, light aviation fatalities are way too high. Similar size sports which had similar levels have made huge improvements with regulations, management, equipment and specifications, and there is no reason these changes cannot be applied to flying.

 

In this unfortunate case, at least we will be getting an ATSB report to learn from.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

"Media Watch" on ABC TV is one of the more informative (and depressing) shows on television. Watch a few episodes and you will have even less faith in the reliability of what you hear.

 

 

[facthunter]

You can have little faith in what you read for sure. Media watch is one of the reasons I watch TV. Barry is better than Holmes. Nev

 

 

[metalman]

Aviation has always been hard on humans ,regardless of how we dress it up flying has all the risks of motor racing ,boating commuting ,infact every other thing we do and then add altitude to the mix . As soon as we leave the ground we have raised the risk factor considerably, so as flyers we have to accept the risks or take up knitting, simple!

 

We can do a lot to lower the risks but we'll never remove them , and on top of everything else it's spring ,we always seem to get a spike in crashes after the winter hibernation .

 

I always get annoyed when they mention" speed " as a factor in car accidents,,,what a stupid comment ! Of course speeds a factor ,with out any speed it's hard to bounce a couple of cars off each other.

 

 

[facthunter]

Aviation is hard on the careless ( and those in their immediate vicinity, and those who know them. Most of your luck is made by you. Good or bad. General statement (not related to this occurrence) only. You have to do something to make a mistake also. As they say" those who have never made a mistake, never made anything". Flying and motorcycling are both fairly dangerous and I do and have done both. Looking back there have been many occasions where the chances of a good outcome were distinctly against the odds. I think I was lucky to have a lot of good training. That is why I still emphasise it a lot.. It would be a shame to come a gutser because the training was lacking. Nev

 

 

[Flying Spanner]

For the most part I believe and my opion of recreational aviation could and can be safe from operator to operator.

 

But as a general concern of people saying it is statistically safe, I believe is out right wishful thinking and are living in denial for the sport we love and would hate to discontinue.

 

I'm happy for people to believe it is safe as it will let me continue to let me fly in the future, but I do believe otherwise.

 

I fly with the reasoning that i am prepared take my chances at this given time in my life as I get so much back from it and try to protect myself as much as possible from the holes in the cheese lining up using common sense and good practices.

 

If you compare RA/GA accidents say in a yearly total and compared to private passenger vehicle transport we come out smelling roses.

 

But if you look at in this way, what do you think? Using my own averages as they differ so much betweens us all,

 

For example:

 

If you look at an airline passenger jet carrying say 400pax from Melbourne to London with 1 stop in between and return.

 

People that fly long distance - average maybe once per second year.

 

You would have total of 4 trips/sectors

 

travel flt time totaling 40 hours

 

Kilometers per seat 40,000 Kms.

 

In one year, 1 airline may do the trip daily reaching 365 times trips a year with out incident hopefully. And without pax fatilities, no problems.

 

Now let's look at pax car for example:

 

People drive per year - Almost every one

 

I cannot even work out how many trips or sectors I average year that I do! But as a guess between 2-4 trip/sectors minuim a day.

 

I do average around 20,000 - 30,000 Kms a year

 

Total hours in the car I cannot say but I would average 1 and a half hours a day totaling about 500 hours a year.

 

Now if I look at flying my RA-AUS aircraft

 

People who fly per year - minority

 

I do about an average of 8o-120 hours a year private flying

 

My average trip time would average about 1 hour

 

So we looking about 80 to 120 trips a year.

 

Distance flying 15,000 - 20,000 km's a year.

 

Now if you look at the totals, I don't have the actual accident rates, but comparingly a calculated guess, this how I see it.

 

If I were to compare the trips/sectors, I believe the car would win hands down in safety due to the high amount trips and the total qauntity per accident report in doing so. The total km's and distance per trip is much lesser in comparisons to other forms but there is still masses of time and trips involved for everyone.

 

If I were to compare by distance kms I say the airliner would be much safer as it does less trips and travel so much further in small time than any other form.

 

Then I look at our RA/GA aircraft and I see we don't travel that far, we do a fair amount of trips/sectors, and there just not many of us flying aircraft on regular basis for the comparison rates of accidents.

 

It just doesn't seem to be convincingly safe.

 

The other thing I do recignise is the difference in qaulity of operational standards from hanger to hanger in comparison to the airline and passenger vehicle operations out there, that must make a difference on your statistic chances of having a bingle in RA/GA?

 

As I said this is my beliefs and opion as a pilot/maintainer.

 

I believe we have much work to do in safety, culture and transparency in what we do.

 

 

[turboplanner]

...collided with terrain.....an unusal ATSB comment?

 

 

[Powerin]

The figure that I recall reading somewhere, and I am unsure if it is verifiable, is that the estimated risk of death/injury in flying a light aircraft is similar (perhaps slightly more) to the risk of motorcycle riding (taking into account the time/distance/participation rate). If I recall, this is several times more risk than driving a car.

 

Sincere condolences to the family and friends of Ben.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Of the 1500 or so people who drive in Speedway in Victoria, there has not been a fatality for nearly 50 years - zero fatality rate (there have been a few in other states).

 

Prior to that it was more or less a bloodbath with regular fatalities; the government stepped in and made it a "no-contact sport" and the clubs and associations then got serious about cleaning it up.

 

 

[Chird65]

... I am thinking of another KR-2 fatal in the States recently, that I read about, where the owner suffered an inflight vert fin failure, which sounded like a possible weak link on this design..........Maj...

Hey Maj, can you give a reference to that incident? As you can see from my avatar this is the plane I have an interest in. i have never heard of a vertical fin issue although CASA did in the past add a requirement for attach points for the rudder.

 

Chris