Radar signature of little planes

[Old Koreelah]

Mark's radio talk-back service allows flyers in his area to hear how good or bad their own radio transmissions are. That's a great service.

 

Perhaps we could also use some feedback on radar (no pun intended). Do we know how visible our little aircraft are on radar? Can ATC or large aircraft see us on their screen?

 

Besides the engine, my little wooden Jodel has minimal metal, so how much radar does it reflect?

 

Does anyone have reliable info regarding the radar signature of little planes of different design and materials?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I recall in the past flying rag and tube that they were seeing us just because of the engine. And years ago skydiving west of Sydney the would get a return when around four or more skydivers hooked up in formation, six or eight and the had us for sure. not too much metal on a skydiver really just snaps and buckles.

 

I'm sure the sensitivity is adjustable on modern radar....................Maj...

 

 

[Methusala]

According to a mate, ATC in Canberra has no difficulty in picking up a Sapphire at 30+nm.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

According to a mate, ATC in Canberra has no difficulty in picking up a Sapphire at 30+nm.

G'day mate, Well that's interesting because not a lot of metal on one of those either !.........hope you are still enjoying 'Foxy' down that way.....................Cheers Maj...

 

 

[Methusala]

G'day Maj, was in at RAAus yesterday re-registering her for another year. Best wishes from us Canberra mob, Don

 

 

[Millie]

Methusala is right I fly around Canberra in my Sapphire (mostly fibreglass) and often get calls from ATC wanting to know who I am and if I have a Transponder, even when I am well and truly outside ATC boundries, not only that but they pinpoint my location and altitude, mostly on Sundays I strongly suspect they are bored.

 

As I always keep a listening watch on Canberra Approach it took me quite by supprise when ATC made a call to aircraft operating at my location and hight, I at first thought there was some other heavy metal very close but realised they were watching me, now we are good friends I often call them up and let them know my intensions.

 

 

[facthunter]

Radar located for aircraft surveillance will pick up small planes without transponders turned on, if in range. The weather radar on commercial aircraft will not pick them up, although you could fluke a larger plane sometimes.( Get a poor quality return from it) Nev

 

 

[Dieselten]

A transponder usually puts the issue beyond all doubt.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is a question of how much radar coverage will be there into the future and what take -up of ADSB happens and how effective it would be in areas of high aircraft density and what procedures would be taught and the cost? Nev

 

 

[geoffreywh]

I too have a Jodel. Melbourne Central pick me up easily.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Bear in mind that primary radar is only around the higher density areas. A large amount of Australa is only covered by SSR and not primary radar, so to be identified in the more remote areas you need a transponder.

 

 

[ayavner]

I don't think its a matter of metal so much as how much surface area there is to reflect the signal. i've been seen on the bankstown lane of entry by sydney

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Bear in mind that primary radar is only around the higher density areas. A large amount of Australa is only covered by SSR and not primary radar, so to be identified in the more remote areas you need a transponder.

The ideal situation is for everything in the air to have a functioning transponder- but that could turn us all into Volvo drivers (complacent, over-trusting of the technology, not looking where we are going.) The reality is that few of us will make that investment- unless forced to do so. (I recall a proposal for Air Services to give everyone/subsidise transponders, because it would be cheaper than upgrading the radar system.) Even then, there would always be aircraft whose transponder didn't work, so a good lookout will always be required.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Hi Old K - you are mixing systems.

 

Air services was going to give or heavily subsidize everybody new ADSB equipment rather than simply maintain -not upgrade- the NDB system. They offered a one time subsidy and along with the absolute statement that at some time in the near future the NDB system would be closed down and then all operators would have to go to ADSB (at their own cost if they don't take the offer now). In one of the admittedly few misjudgments that aviation consumer groups like AOPA have made along the way they bowed to pressure from the old grizzled pilots who loved their NDBs over new tangled gizmos the offer was rejected.

 

And now we are getting the first murmurings and official statements coming out of all aircraft having to have ADSB in the next couple of years - at our own cost just as predicted :-(

 

 

[facthunter]

Jaba who.. Isn't the question one of replacing expensive surveillance radar with a new ADSB IN/ OUT control and separation system where you are not supposed to be able to turn off the individual aircraft equipment and position information is fed to a central data collection system. This tells ATC where each plane is. ADF's and DME's etc become obsolete as NAVIGATION aids. GNSS replacing them. Aircraft can tell where other aircraft are IF they have ADSB IN and OUT capability. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I remember being suddenly "whited out" whilst flying a C-210 not far away from Melbourne in the early seventies,. . . .( Yes,. . . I know, . . . lack of attention ) they said they couldn't see me on the radar at all and could therefore offer no advice, YET. . . . . a couple of months later they had a sharp word with me for nearly "Grazing" controlled airspace in almost the same position flying the same aeroplane ! ! ! ! ! maybe the clouds got in the way of the radar signal in the first instance. . . . .( ? )

 

To be fair to ATC, we didn't have a transponder . . . . .

 

 

[jakej]

Y

 

Hi Old K - you are mixing systems.Air services was going to give or heavily subsidize everybody new ADSB equipment rather than simply maintain -not upgrade- the NDB system. They offered a one time subsidy and along with the absolute statement that at some time in the near future the NDB system would be closed down and then all operators would have to go to ADSB (at their own cost if they don't take the offer now). In one of the admittedly few misjudgments that aviation consumer groups like AOPA have made along the way they bowed to pressure from the old grizzled pilots who loved their NDBs over new tangled gizmos the offer was rejected.

And now we are getting the first murmurings and official statements coming out of all aircraft having to have ADSB in the next couple of years - at our own cost just as predicted :-(

You are correct, it was a pseudo ADSB system . FYI - I had one of the first units ( a Microair Radio with Gps 'engine' ) fitted to our plane for flight tests, Canberra to GLB for low level range checks & an ILS on return for accuracy tests. The thinking at the time was to get someone like Garmin to make 10,000 units & to give one to every aircraft, that would be more cost effective than 1 x new radar. I believe Garmin may have said the order was too small to bother with & politics & techos self interest may have killed that idea also - why am I not surprised, now we'll have to pay the full amount :-(

 

 

[soilmaster]

The importance of transponders and the people behind the screens cannot be over stated.

 

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