Orbits In The Circuit ?

[DrZoos]

Hi all i know the risks of flying a left or right orbit in terms of collision with oncoming traffic.

 

And i know ATC is meant to tell you when and where to fly an orbit

 

But it seems there is complete disagreement by everyone you ask about an Orbit.

 

Technically or literally speaking a standard circuit at a non towered aerodrome should be left turns only unless stated otherwise.

 

So heres what i want to know.

 

IS there an actual document that explains orbits and when they should and should not be done and in what direction. It seems the people i know that do them at untowered aerodromes do so turning to the right.

 

It seems that the argument against them is collision risk, and the argument that a right turn in a left circuit is "not allowed".

 

I guess this might open a pandoras box, but i would love to know/see what the "Official line on orbits is"

 

Ive searched and the governign bodies of varios countries that do include orbits in thier documents dont mention direction. I cant find anything from CASA or RAAus on the topic that is instructional.

 

 

[ben87r]

No turns opposite are allowed once in the circuit area. Never had to orbit OCTA but reckon I would go around and join midfield any try it all again if I couldn't get it slowed up enough

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-1.pdf

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Why would you do an orbit in the circuit area (either way)? Slow down, extend downwind, dogleg, or as ben87r said "go around and join midfield any try it all again" !!

 

 

[facthunter]

IF you are in a head on situation BOTH turn RIGHT. It's not a full turn. I've done orbits in a control zone (with a clearance). Think I would avoid them in normal circuits. The only real way to enlarge a circuit is extend downwind. Nev

 

 

[Camel]

I was requested to orbit transiting Williamtown control when a mayday was happening, all ended well. They just wanted everyone out of the way. I agree with rejoining midfield.

 

Everyone should have a copy of this, I keep an electronic copy.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/vfr/vfrg-whole.pdf

 

 

[DrZoos]

No turns opposite are allowed once in the circuit area. Never had to orbit OCTA but reckon I would go around and join midfield any try it all again if I couldn't get it slowed up enoughhttp://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-1.pdf

Thats what i mean , not a mention of an orbit and the only reference to turn direction is

quote "The standard aerodrome traffic circuit facilitates the orderly flow of traffic, and is normally a left circuit pattern with all turns to the left [CAR 166A]."

 

Theres not a mention of this yet i have come across several people using it and teaching it. Stumps me.

 

And when i asked a few senior instructors and others, not one said you cant do it. Some said you shouldnt, others said not a problem. The main argument was about direction.

 

 

[DrZoos]

What really stumps me is that an Orbit is such a common thing for ATC, why the hell isnt it taught and why on earth cant highly experience pilots even find a reference to it, or agree on its use or direction. Seems to me to be an accident waiting to happen.

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

I'm not sure if this counts as an orbit as the pilot did depart the circuit, but I was approaching the airfield and there was another RAAus aircraft in the circuit at the time. He departed downwind and orbited x miles west of the field and above circuit height to make way (voluntarily) for a RFDS PC12 on a straight in approach. He was very clear about what he was doing and was exactly where he said he was. I guess as long as you make clear radio calls it helps with the safety aspect. I'd like to know what the official procedure is though.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Orbiting is fine in CTA, or away from the circuit area, but it should be used sparingly in a non controlled circuit!

 

 

[facthunter]

Outside the circuit is a different matter. I wouldn't do it an a congested lane. (Surely that is obvious)

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Over your house is generally fine too!

 

 

[ben87r]

An orbit is a turn....

 

Thats what i mean , not a mention of an orbit and the only reference to turn direction isquote "The standard aerodrome traffic circuit facilitates the orderly flow of traffic, and is normally a left circuit pattern with all turns to the left [CAR 166A]."

Theres not a mention of this yet i have come across several people using it and teaching it. Stumps me.

 

And when i asked a few senior instructors and others, not one said you cant do it. Some said you shouldnt, others said not a problem. The main argument was about direction.

[ben87r]

I was only covering this the other day with ground school over wether you can " legally" join right base for a left hand circuit. You really need to go through the CAR and also the jepps as it is all a little muddied. But remembering that a CAAP isn't law then it's pretty much all bets a off except for 166

 

 

[metalman]

If I was in the situation where I had to get out of the circuit for some reason , on a left base I'd turn midfield crosswind to the dead side of the circuit then if rejoining I'd do a normal midfield downwind join( or crosswind ,depending on where I ended up) , rules? Not sure but if it's nessasary to get out of the circuit I'd consider this the safest way to go about, that's about as close to an orbit in the circuit I'd ever get ( I've never done this ,but the discussion got me thinking) in reality I've only ever extended downwind if needed , certainly open to thoughts on this as I've never thought about it in a CTAF

 

Matty

 

 

[DrZoos]

Where i fly we have regular ATP straight in approaches and the Virgin Pilots are super nervous, id say some days ridiculously over anxious. So even extending downwind is sometimes unacceptable to them. They want super wide circuits that are just not feasable in slow training aircraft, as it means a normal 7 minute circuit once extended in both length and width turns into a 20min circuit, and for student pilots thats half your one hour air time gone. If you get both Q and V come in you get maybe 2 landings in a 1 hour session. Sux big time. Waste of money. Unfortunately the best flying times for weather also correspond with the busy ATP times and for many who work or whos instructors work its the only time of day you can fly..... hence i think why several use orbits, because they can turn a 20 minute circuit back into a 13or 14 minute circuit ???? just my thoughts on why they do it. Generally speaking ive never seen them do it when they are not the only one in the circuit. The ATP's come straight in 9 out of 10 times during summer.

 

 

[David Isaac]

We'll to start with RPT do NOT have right of way when they are doing a straight in approach and have no right to demand the circuit be clear.

 

There is absolutely NO reason why you cannot remain in the circuit and remain clear of them as long as you talk to them and keep each other in sight.

 

Good God it's not rocket science.

 

The problem is frustrated when an RPT gives an straight in approach call some miles out and BSs on the distance. I had that happen at Taree when I was flying a Drifter and told the Rex PIC that I would extend down wind to allow him to land because of the distance he called. Well that was a waste of effort I could have landed and cleared the bloody runway by the time he finally passed me as I extended downwind and I ended up doing a Bloody two mile final. It just stuffs it for everyone when that happens.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You should never try to orbit in a circuit because it will put you on a collision course at some stage. As someone else said, by extending, and also by going to one stage if flaps you should be able to avoid running over the slowest one or two aircraft. This is routine training at major fields, but I have faced country visitors head on on two occasions

 

As David says if an RPT tries to jump you he does not have priority, particularly where your confusion with the regulations could put you in collision mode.

 

In CTA you will be told to orbit when inbound, well away from the circuit, and it pays to learn the orbit landmarks.

 

If for your own reason you don't want to land, just leave the circuit at the designated points, do what you have to do and rejoin.

 

Remember, too many pilots are too embarrased to call a Pan or Mayday but that will get you first in.

 

 

[Downunder]

I fly for fun and always giveway for "heavies", either by slowing down or leaving circuit.

 

That way everyone's happy. I 'm not out to endanger paying passengers or inconvenience airlines.

 

Quite often they will radio their appreciation of my efforts.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think the straight in approach the "heavies" do, makes it easier to fit in with them. I am surprised David, they would get it wrong having plenty of information in front of them to help. GO TO on any GPS gives it anyhow. Ground speed I multiples of 60 is easy. 60, 120 180, is 1, 2 and 3 miles a minute respectively, and you can guestimate in between. I don't know why they do large circuits. 8 minutes for a circuit from roll to full stop is easily achieved with most jets. Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

I was requested to orbit transiting Williamtown control when a mayday was happening, all ended well. They just wanted everyone out of the way. I agree with rejoining midfield. Everyone should have a copy of this, I keep an electronic copy.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/vfr/vfrg-whole.pdf

The military are not the greatest controllers I have found. They left me going round and round over Port Phillip off Point Cook one year for a war bird flyin and I swear I was getting dizzy :-)

 

BuT seriously, the only time to orbit in the circuit is if instructed by ATC. Otherwise stretch the circuit or go around. The place gets too much traffic at the same level for safety in that situation.

 

Kaz

 

 

[tafisama]

Years ago I was in South Africa and orbiting the circuit is something that we regularly practiced.The Airport we were using was a controlled one with ATC.What would happen is if you had to go around when someone was still on the runway you would get"Bravo Golf Tango Orbit to your right maintaining sight with the aircraft taking off.Please keep your circuit tight." We would then fly an ellipse tight circuit to the right for a normal left-hand circuit and vice versa.Instead of flying the normal circuit height ,we would fly lower by 200 feet.This required one to be very precise.This was quite challenging because one had to start descent early just before turning base.In an Orbit we were like circling from upwind to downwind and downwind to final.The crosswind and base legs were arcs so to speak.

 

I am not sure of the Australian System though as I have never done it or witnessed anyone do it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The answer to the original question lies in the CASA regulations. The minute ALL RA aircraft leave the ground they are flying to CASA regulations, and your instructor should have given you the CAR references etc before you go solo - he/she has, hasn't he/she?

 

If you read the regulations and abide by them you will have the answer, and will fit in at any airfield.

 

The problem with making things up as you go along, particularly at a small country field with one RPT per day, is that you will get into a comfortable bad habit. Then one day a Bonanza on a cross country flight is going to come in at high speed doing a formal approach and circuit, as he should, and smack into you because you are not in the correct position. This is made much more likely by the poor standard of radios and radio procedures which RA aircraft have drifted into. Things like "Hi, I'm at the stockyards inbound" don't help.

 

Also, Downunder and the three who agreed with you, if you don't learn to fit in with other traffic, you will never build enough skills to get down in busy traffic where there are 8 to 12 in the circuit, without getting run over. Going wide, running on, keeping very tight, joining early, joining late, flying at varying speed (In the Cherokee from around 120 down to 65), the "fit in" techniques all have to be learnt. At Archerfield, Bankstown and Moorabbin, and increasingly at places like Roma, you need to be able to join the circuit and get down in front of corporate jets with the circuit full of aircraft.

 

There was a very long similar thread to this one three or four years ago, and I'm sure it sealed the fate of RA aircraft being allowed to operate in CTA, and there was some retraining of some RPT operators by CASA as well.

 

 

[kgwilson]

When I did my PPL many years ago we were trained in orbit procedures but this was under the control of ATC. They have you and all other aircraft on the radar and they are charged with the job of maintaining separation in the CTA. I was told to orbit quite a number of times by ATC. Sometime this was before joining the circuit and sometimes within the circuit. Often it was when there was a 737 or other heavy lining up or coming in & the orbit was to ensure the 3 minute wake turbulence separation was maintained.

 

At an uncontrolled aerodrome doing orbits in the circuit is dangerous and in my opinion just plain stupid.

 

 

[Camel]

I agree the practice is dangerous in uncontrolled airdromes. I believe the problem in many airdromes where RPT operate and have problems is where there is no parallel taxiway so when a plane lands the problem is it must back track on that runway. This problem exists at many regional airdromes and should be addressed at individual locations by the airdrome operator, as a plane cannot follow another in without danger. Light aircraft usually follow each other on a back track by communicating their intensions, I believe it is the practice of RPT not to have any aircraft on a runway that they are using for their operations manual. At some airports the plane will taxi to the end of runway turn around and take off, and if another is in the circuit you do not have time to enter and back track without becoming in the way. The main problem is not having taxiways to clear runways. I originally trained in Trikes at a busy airport with RPT and it was not a problem as it had full length parallel taxiway with multiple entry exit points. Having said that I still don't think orbit are the fix and I think that it is dangerous and poor airmanship.

 

I have dealt with RPT in a training environment and it requires good simple BRIEF communication to understand positions of all in the CTAF but without taxiways it takes some time to clear runways.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is no doubt that backtracking and turning is a time consuming exercise and may result in sending an aircraft around again. Expensive YES .. It could cost thousands but unless they were running low on fuel, not dangerous. We all seem to agree that orbiting inside the circuit when not under control (CTA) is NOT SAFE. IF something you do with your plane does cause a hazard you may find it expensive or at worst you may have a holiday with accommodation provided for a while. Good discussion and worth having. Nev