Orbits In The Circuit ?

[Old Koreelah]

?.. and increasingly at places like Roma, you need to be able to join the circuit and get down in front of corporate jets with the circuit full of aircraft.

The worst part is not being able to get off the strip, out of the way of approaching traffic. Do we land long and surrender our go-around option, or taxi for a km or more while some heavy burns loads of jetfuel?

As Camel said, we need taxiways. Where they don't exist, if we backtrack on the dirt/grass verges, is it kosha for someone to use the adjacent main strip, or must we be outside the gables?

 

 

[facthunter]

The gables define the limits of the strip/runway so much as another plane must not infringe the area. Remember this when you are holding. Nev

 

 

[ave8rr]

BuT seriously, the only time to orbit in the circuit is if instructed by ATC. Otherwise stretch the circuit or go around. The place gets too much traffic at the same level for safety in that situation.

Kaz

AGREE Kaz and the direction of orbit will be in the opposite direction to the circuit being flown i.e. away from the landing area.

Cheers

 

 

[facthunter]

Take into account the dead side of the circuit or as instructed. An orbit is useful if you are too close to a preceding aircraft , Could be on another runway, or are too high or have a problem with the aircraft that needs time to sort. nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

If the preceding aircraft is a low performance it will be 500 feet below you until final.

 

With contemporary aircraft you have the difference between cruise and shortfield speed to slow down, and opportunities to run on into a wider circuit.

 

On parallel runways I find the separation is good enough that the other guy is in a separate world

 

There's nothing to stop you making a standard departure from the circuit and rejoining when sorted

 

Draw a diagramme of an orbit say on downwind, and you'll see you will interfere with parallel operations, and you'll be rejoining at traffic height with traffic behind you out of your view - you could be wearing a Commanche, or worse, listening to a Baron let off steam. Why would you do it?

 

 

[DrZoos]

Im at a busy airfield, about 7- 9 RPT per day, plus lots of other traffic and lots and lots of flyover traffic, but the bulk in morning and afternoon. I would prefer not to say where as i dont want insinuations about anyone or locations. So im well aware how to deal with traffic.

 

I just want to refresh that to my knowledge the persons doing orbits have only ever done so when they are the only one in the circuit and when the RPT is on straight in.

 

There defence is that an orbit is leaving then rejoining the circuit from downwind, both which are allowable ???

 

Im not in agreement or disagrement, but it stumps me why something so common at ATC has absolutely no mention anywhere ?? And whats worse is there is no common agreement amongst pilots as to when and where it should be done.

 

I think everyone realises doing it downwind with traffic behind or around is dangerous, but that ssems to be the only common ground.

 

Turbo - In regard to CASA CAR where is it. No one can produce a section of the document that comments on orbits or any similar behaviour ??? Everyone seems to think its in there, but i have looked and its not. Plenty of people claim it is, not one can produce it ????

 

 

[facthunter]

Zoos I'm wracking my brain but I can't think of any time when I wasn't in controlled airspace. A dog leg performs the same function, and ATC will initiate and if you are a bit high. A few "S" turns help, but even that is a bit suss (You don't get cleared for that)..

 

Turbs the other runway I'm referring to is not a parallel one but an intersecting one where there is a possibility of collision after landing. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

If you are in the circuit and the RPT is on straight in, he is required to take his place. If he isn't, then perhaps there are some local operational issues to be sorted out. In some cases they were trying to land on non-duty runways, such as downwind, and these were some of the things I think CASA discussed with them.

 

You just don't know when you are the only one in the circuit these days in the see and be seen times - many aircraft seem to give no transmission at all, or apologise explaining they forgot to change frequency. So you do take a risk assuming. I've had an Indian (NTTIAWTT) student providing me with the first inkling he was anywhere near the airfield when he shot past me from behind on downwind.

 

ATC in their area are likely to call you to do anything, including in my case one day, enter a thunderstorm to make way for an ambulance aircraft, and they are the ones who use the term "Orbit" which most commonly applies to heavy RPT aircraft in stacks. They also may call for you to orbit over a particular location when you are inbound until they are ready for you, and both the above are away from the circuit. Someone else has mentioned being called to orbit in the circuit to provide a wake turbulence gap, but they are then controlling the entry of any other aircraft to the circuit, and I'd be stunned if it was at a two runway field.

 

So because there are places where orbits are done, I would imagine, mainly in GA circles, some pilots may be stretching the above and inventing their own circumstances.

 

I wouldn't expect to find a CAR referring to orbiting in an uncontrolled circuit - it seems so bizarre that CASA probably never thought of it - a bit like looking for a CAR that talks about dutch rolls, but you might get something out of the wording related to flying circuits - it might be specific enough that you can be sure it excludes anything other than what is laid down as a legal circuit.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

AGREE Kaz and the direction of orbit will be in the opposite direction to the circuit being flown i.e. away from the landing area.Cheers

...and I was always taught never to turn right in a left-hand circuit.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbs the other runway I'm referring to is not a parallel one but an intersecting one where there is a possibility of collision after landing. Nev

That's another $%#@&%! sore point; some people seem to use any runway which points in their direction, and you are effectively in the same situation as you are when driving on the road with someone going to sleep and crossing the road towards you - do you go right and become responsible for the crash?

 

For someone wanting to practice crosswinds it's only a matter of them watching where you are and timing their departure, and circuit speed to stay well clear of you, and to be fair, I've never seen anyone bullying their way through on a non-duty runway.

 

 

[facthunter]

OK, Except as I pointed out earlier , if you are going to hit an aircraft coming the other way.

 

RPT aircraft in stacks hold in a racetrack pattern where height, direction of turn, tracking inbound reference, limiting distances for inbound and outbound legs and a "UNTILL" or approach time. in the clearance.

 

Turbs the possible lack of separation with conflicting runways in CTA is usually a result of a miscalculation by ATC. IT does happen sometimes and you have to be aware of it You cannot just say I'm cleared to do it, nor should you accept any clearance for your aircraft you consider unsafe. You say Not acceptable and request an alternative course of action Nev