Jabiru Engine 2200 Mechanical Problem Reporting

[Vev]

Good luck DT, hope it goes really well. It would be so good to hear that Jabiru is on top of their engine issues.The $5,400 would have been a bargain if you'd achieved 1,000 hours TBO and could confidently expect another 1,000 hours to the next O/h.

 

So, let's see, if you add the $5,400 to the original cost of around $15k and if you get another 1,000 hrs TBO and you don't have to do any further major work it will have cost about $21k for 1,500 hours? Something like that? Or about $14 per hour.

 

A Rotax 912ULS with 20% more HP and a TBO of 2,000 hours at say $23k up front and no mid life engine failure/overhaul except perhaps the gearbox ($900?) - about $24k for 2,000 hours or $12 per hour.

 

I think I know which makes $ and sense.

 

p.s.I have no financial interest in Rotax, Floods or anything like that.

BR,

 

You have 2 Jabs listed in your profile .... have you taken your own counsel and replaced these engines with Rotax 912 out of your own hard earned cash?

 

I'm sure it costs a lot more than $24k to do the change over ... last time I spoke to someone who actually did the job it said it cost a whole lot more.

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[Dieselten]

Engine hung today. Talk about "The Sermon On The Mount"! If Jabiru just used engine mounting-bolts 1/4" longer a half-day job would have been done in half an hour.

 

 

[Dieselten]

Well, the story grows more interesting by the day. Engine ground-run a few days ago. Big oil-leak from oil-cooler adapter. Tightened it. Cleaned up spilt oil (the cowling will never rust!) Did 4 hours approx running-in. Found oil-leaks around one of the new through-bolts. Cleaned up and applied talcum-powder, then short engine run.

 

Discovered no 4 cylinder has a crack at the base. This was original cylinder where the through-bolts failed; it was re-used for the overhaul. Engine is now back off aircraft, in the wooden box and will go back to Jabiru for work under rebuilt engine warranty.

 

AOG again. AOG started 23/12/2010. Ended ??/??/????.

 

If anyone can see the funny side of this will they please let me know where it is; I seem to have misplaced it somewhere.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

What did Jabiru say when you rang them and told them what was going on? Don't they run the engines prior to shipping?

 

 

[Dieselten]

"Experience is a hard teacher; she gives you the test first and the lesson afterwards".

 

New and rebuilt engines are run in at Jabiru for 5 hours, one at a time. They usually do 1 per day. When I informed the Jab engine people of the problem I asked why the oil-leak wasn't noticed at run in; no answer. I asked if the cylinders associated with the failed through-bolts received any dye-checking or other NDT before being re-used; again no answer. The impression I got was the people at Jabiru were not very pleased with the situation. They are not alone. There may be multiple reasons for their "winter of discontent". For me it resolves into a single issue.

 

I have a non-performing asset which has failed to deliver any income for over 5 months to date and in all probability that will string out to the best part of 6 calendar months before the income-stream re-establishes itself...if it ever does. In that period it has been a pit into which I have poured money on a regular basis (hangarage, insurance, pre-paid landing-fees etc) and received nothing in return. There is a limit to how long I am prepared to continue with this.

 

Pragmatically, I need to get this aircraft back in the air, and for that to happen Jabiru have to fix my engine and get it back to me, which they will do to the best of their ability. We will then re-install it, ground run it (checking very carefully as before), then test-fly it for some hours to ensure when it goes on-hire again it will perform as expected by people who hire aircraft in good faith.

 

If the engine meets expectations then I will continue to utilise the aircraft. However, if the engine proves troublesome, then I reserve the right to actively and critically review the composition of my fleet. To blindly support a manufacturere simply because it is "all Australian" would be foolhardy. The product will rise - or fall - on its merits and nothing else.

 

 

[ieadave]

I have a question regarding rebuild, zero timing, and warranty on rebuild by the manufacture.

 

I fly a S LSA (Indus Thorpedo) in the states. Last October I experienced a full inflight engine failure returning to my home field from a cross country flight. Fortunate for me I was able to make an on field landing. I had the #2 exhaust valve fail at 293 hours on the 2200 engine ( 22A.2128). There is no need to go through the causes except to say the aircraft did not have egt gauge only cht's. I will never fly behind a Jabiru again without a complete set of egt gauges, I think that these gauges should be mandatory on any aircraft. My engine was out of warranty at the time of the incident.

 

JabiruUs ( the largest stateside Jabiru agency) broke open the case and told me the case was shipped to Australia for inspection and re bore. Recently I was told that the west coast dealership returned from Australia with tools to allow Jabiru engines to be re bored now in the US and my case is being reworked in California. Prior to the necessary tools coming to the US all cases had to be shipped to the factory for such work. JabiruUs is prepared to rebuld the engine for return to service. I hope to finally see the rebuild completed in a few weeks. I have been down now for seven months. For you chaps close enough to do business directly with the factory I have the following questions:

 

1. When a Jabiru engine is factory rebuilt what type of warranty does the company offer?

 

2. How does the factory price out a rebuild and the zero timing on a returned damaged engine?

 

3. I am depending on the authorized Jabiru agent and going through the agent regarding any matters or issues on this engine.. .but I am becoming curious about who your deal with directly on matters concerning engine repair or rebuild at the facory.

 

 

[Dieselten]

One comment I heard recently is if Jabiru offered a firewall-forward package and the Rotax 912 engine as an option for kit-builders they wouldn't be able to make enough airframes to keep up with demand. The issue seems to be one of "doing it all here" instead of sourcing the powerplant from a manufacturer with production-capacity and proven reliability.

 

ieadave,

 

1. I'll find out.

 

2. New 2.2 engines $13900Aus. Factory-rebuilt solid-lifter engine $11500Aus. My zero-hour rebuild was $5500 and counting (will be extra cost for new cylinder and freight each way, perhaps a total of $6500Aus)

 

3. We ring the engine-shop at the Jabiru factory in Bundaberg and talk to the people there. We don't ring the engine manufacturer (a company called Camit) because they just build engines, they don't repair them. Jabiru do that themselves.

 

 

[ieadave]

D10.

 

Thanks for responding. Now another question. If a factory-rebuild is $11500 Aus. Why was your bill $5500 plus. Were you still under warranty on the original? For your information my engine has hydrolic lifters.

 

 

[Dieselten]

My engine rebuild was my very own engine, not a factory rebuilt unit from someone else. That was part of the lengthy delay...I wanted the same engine back which I sent them. It had to wait in the queue until it could be rebuilt, then it had to wait in the queue for the engine test-stand run-in. I don't know how many other engines were in the workshop for rebuilds at the time.

 

I also don't know what delays were caused by catastrophoic flooding around the area just after Christmas. Basically I chose a very bad time to have an engine-failure - 2 days before Christmas, and I also chose a very bad manufacturer because the factory was in an area which had a major flood. In retrospect these were both very bad decisions.

 

Next time I have an engine failure, I'll try to choose a better time of the year and an engine from a different manufacturer.

 

Warranty for rebuilt engines is 200 hours or 12 months.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I think what Dieselten is saying is that the reason his was the price it was is that he was only paying for the rebuild. Im assuming the higher price is the cost of an engine with the rebuild and you then get a refund for the value of your engine when its returned to J.

 

Effectively about the same cost in total just a few transactions in between.

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

diesel 10 there is no funny side to this. I am sympathetic to you as things are going. A broken through stud doesn't just happen and affects the engine seriously. If parts are reused, they should be treated as suspect unless provem otherwise. The timing of events may have some bearing on the outcomes. Aeroplanes are an exquisite way to get rid of money, aren't they? Nev

 

 

[Bluey]

Sorry to hear about all your problems Ned. I was wondering why the Jab was sitting in the hangar again the other day minus the engine after you mentioned that the installation was just about complete. Hope your luck changes.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[Dieselten]

Jabiru are scrupulously honouring their rebuilt engine warranty. I'm more than satisfied with this outcome.

 

 

[bushpilot]

G

 

Jabiru are scrupulously honouring their rebuilt engine warranty. I'm more than satisfied with this outcome.

Great news D! We also find them very good to deal with us on this sort of thing - although our issues have only been relatively minor.

 

Can you elaborate on what they did for you? I'm sure a few owners have been following your story here...

 

 

[bushpilot]

The best warranty you can have is the one you never have to claim on. The three year warranty on my car hasd just run out and I had zero claims. The way it should be.

That is a very myopic view Don and a silly analogy - given the differences in production volumes and the environment that a/c engines (all of them) operate in, compared to cars. Would have expected better from a would-be representative of the RAA constituency...

 

 

[Vev]

The best warranty you can have is the one you never have to claim on. The three year warranty on my car hasd just run out and I had zero claims. The way it should be.

Don,

 

Whilst this data is 5 years old, I think it still holds up. I somehow think you have the impression that new cars are more reliable than they really are.

 

I suspect Jab has a much lower claim rate than some of these car manufactures. In my experience Jab is aways willing to help their customers and do so well after the warranty period is over.

 

 

 

[dazza 38]

Phew, good to see that the Nissan 4.2 litre turbo isnt there.lol Seriously though, I have been driving for 24 years, I have mostly owned new cars . I had a 1989 diesel Hilux drop a big end bearing nearly Ship itself.That was a common fault going from a massive 50 HP to 78 HP LOL they stroked it the 2.4 to a massive 2.8, it was still a guttless peice of ship.I sold it on the way out.(its OK I sold it to a dealer, he did a engine swap). I owned a new 1998 WRX, the electric window had a fault wouldnt wind up properly.50 000 odd kays Apart from that, not one of my cars has missed a beat. Holden Rodeo( Isuzu from new to 120 000, never missed a beat 3.2 jobby ).My current 4.2 diesel Patrol Bought new , if it doesnt do 500 000 kays i will stand stuffin. Although having said all this, its will be interesting how the new chinese imports go, the Great Walls etc.

 

Moral of the story, Buy Japanese.LOL

 

 

[Bryon]

Hey guys,

 

lighten up,

 

couldnt you see Dons tongue was in his cheek??

 

 

[Vev]

Don,

 

Jabiru is not the only engine that has stopped in flight, Rolls Royce knows how true that actuality is ... I understood your point about not claiming on a warranty is good, but my point was, this is not a reality for any engine manufacture.

 

I think your last comment is being overly emotive with your account of a Jab engine failure (that you missed by few hours) that never actually happened to you. My concern is your personal perception may not be reasonable and you could be unfairly damaging a good Australian brand that deserves more of our support, not criticism through emotive hypothetical comments about what could have happened.

 

The purpose of this thread, in short, was to report actual problems not brand condemnation..... have a read the very first post.

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[facthunter]

Car engines don't get the treatment that aero engines do. Aero engines get barely warmed up, then FULL bore for up to 5 minutes and spend most of the rest at 75% power and then idle approach ( for a bit of shock cooling) and then FULL bore for go-around. Most of Jabiru's problems were associated with the "lean burn" carb settings, and flywheel mounting bolts, and some cowling issues.

 

Even the Gypsy major engine needed a "top" , ( cylinder heads and cylinders off ) pretty often and they ran so rich that they would soot up plugs on descent and burned about a pint of oil per hour. These were considered good reliable engines. Piston aero engines haven't improved reliability much since the magnificent Wright J5 Whirlwind designed in the late 20's. Why was it so good? Because they spent a lot of time designing the head finning and ports and the general high standard of engineering and materials quality. I wouldn't want to think what they would cost in current money terms, but it would be much more than we are paying currently for aero engines. The radial engine in the Yak is a nice "little" 2 row effort but it has only a life of some 500 hours ( I could be corrected on that) Much less when aerobatted. I wouldn't expect a Jabiru to go full TBO without some attention to the heads.( Guides and valve seating). That's not the end of the world and it's affordable and very few flat fours (Aero engines) go to full time without a "TOP". You can make them heavier and more expensive to try, but who want's that? Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

I would rather not have to claim on the warranty of any piece of equipment that I purchase... So I agree with the sentiment. I would rather have a board member who is prepared to ask these questions... It is not just on this forum that the Jabiru has a certain "reputation"... if any board member was unaware or afraid to comment I would be worried.

 

 

[jakej]

Don

 

I suspect Jab has a much lower claim rate than some of these car manufactures. In my experience Jab is aways willing to help their customers and do so well after the warranty period is over.

 

A survey could put this to rest ?

 

Jake J

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't disagree with YOUR sentiments either W68, however the Jab is not a fit and forget engine as it requires a fair bit of routine mantenance/adjustment. In the field lots of people "play" with these engines, and they get varied treatment. Some of them sit for a while. Some of them get overheated and not reported. I myself, would not fly one unlesss I had pulled the engine through and felt the compressions, but you have to know what you are looking for there.

 

L2 maintained, or even LAME maintained, doesn't guarantee much without further qualification. Is the mechanic fully conversant with the techniques required for Jabiru engines As an example. Tensioning of cyl head bolts. They can lock in the threads and if this happens you don't get a correct tension reading. They have to be backed -off and brought up to tension again. Is this always done correctly?. Do some engines get stale fuel? Hot running engines like the Jab are far more sensitive than the liquid cooled alternative. Do the valve guides get checked for wear in situ? Lots of variables out there. Some engines are still running with the earlier lean needles and jets. I'm not suggesting that all is perfect or that Don or anybody else shouldn't be concerned (as I am.). I don't wish to appear as an apologist for the brand, nor will I just condemn it out of hand. It is what it is . Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

I agree... and the fact that they seem to be responding to warranty claims is a good thing...

 

My perception of the Jabiru, indeed any LSA style aircraft, is that they are delicate machines...

 

As for the Jabiru motor... well it may not be the most reliable engine in Ra-Aus use... but it seems that it is in second place behind the Rotax912... that is still quite an achievement.

 

 

[facthunter]

I have made no secret of my preference for the Lyc-233 or the Older continental c-75 ,90, o-200, and 200D. These engines have a weight penalty and some of the ones mentioned, are now old and a good example would be hard to find. If you are going into the "super reliable" realm then buy new. (The lyc 0-233 and Cont 200D) as it will cost you heaps to get an old engine good and it may never be reliable.

 

Whats THAT got to do with Jabiru's?? you might say. Just trying to get things into context, The two engines above might be considered to be the "top end" of the scale. Most of the other stuff falls somewhere in between. Again some would say the Rotax is even better than the two It has some commendable longevity stories, but it also has that pretty ordinary PAIR of carburettors,with rubber mounts that break, the complexity of part liquid cooling and an exhaust system that develops cracks occasionally, and it is a geared engine, with a damper clutch mechanism that needs to be serviced. ALL OK if you look afer it, like anything else.

 

At the bottom there are the various two-strokes. In the beginning that is pretty much ALL that was available. People who flew them understood them (Or they paid for it with lots of engine-outs.) They still have a place (In my opinion) but do the people using them now have the same understanding of how to operate them? Maybe not. They are getting older every year. ( The engines I mean)

 

I WILL still fly a two stroke, but I would want to know it's service history. Would I fly one to New Zealand. (It has been done) Don't think so.. I would also think twice about operating one out of an aerodrome like Bendigo where there are built-up areas everywhere. You can operate in a manner that makes engine failures something that you CAN cope with. When you learn to fly in a two stroke powered plane you do engine failures ad infinitum, ( or you SHOULD).

 

No engine ever built can guarantee a no failure situation. The very best can still fail. You should be trained to cope and operate to minimise the adverse consequences of an engine failure, and we nearly always have only ONE engine, so you are not going anywhere without it. Service it (whatever you have) and don't do things which are away from what the maker recommends. Be a little wary of GURU's.. Nev