Cessna LSA - A significant event...

[bushpilot]

Folks,

 

There have been some posts regarding the entry last week of Cessna into the LSA / Recreational Aviation market. I think this event is so significant that I am bringing my post on that thread into "General Discussion".

 

I figured that with the thread sitting in the "GA" topic, many of you might miss it - but also I am keen to get some feedback on a couple of questions from those of you more learned than me:

 

1. With the Cessna 162 certified in the USA, what are the barriers to certification in Australia?

 

2. Would Cessna logically roll a new model like this out to non-American markets? ie Are all other Cessna types available in Australia?

 

My last post in the GA topic - thread http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3942 was:

 

A truly significant event..

 

Thinking about the new Cessna LSA, I reckon this is one of the most significant events in the evolution of our sport - rec. aviation and LSA generally.

 

With a respected manufacturer like Cessna getting into the category, and with a lot of noise around the launch and the follow-through, a lot more people out there will come to know about the category.

 

Also, those that already know about the category but see it as a bit quirky, will likely be positively influenced by a main-stream brand entering the market.

 

It's worth trawling through the Cessna "Skycatcher" blog and checking out the thoroughness of their presentation... http://www.cessnaskycatcher.com/

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

__________________

 

 

[drkgld]

Significant indeed.

 

Have the recreational flying community reached consensus yet whether LSA represents a downsizing of GA or an upsizing of ultralights? This new development represents a further big step in that direction and the entry of "big names" into the arena will surely force many small manufacturers out.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Went to their web page, saw the pics...

 

Think I've fallen in love ;>

 

Hate to ask how much $$$ tho

 

If it's heaps, then the smaller manufacturers will probably not be that worried. Not that hard competing with a product that costs twice what yours does, regardless of the name brand.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Hmm, according to their website, it's $111K US. Not that bad!

 

 

[bushpilot]

Hmm, according to their website, it's $111K US. Not that bad!

Ive talked to the Aussie Cessna agent; he says US$109,500 + freight. He has ordered "several" - but unsure of ETA at this time.

 

Reportedly the demand since the U.S. launch a week ago has been huge with over 500 deposits of $5,000 taken.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

 

[bushpilot]

Significant indeed.Have the recreational flying community reached consensus yet whether LSA represents a downsizing of GA or an upsizing of ultralights? This new development represents a further big step in that direction and the entry of "big names" into the arena will surely force many small manufacturers out.

Not necessarily so. The entry of "big names" will create more general awareness of the U/L - LSA category, which in turn means more people shopping the options in terms of a/c. So Cessna 162 is likely to line up with say Tecnam and CT in final delivered price, but Jabiru, Brumby etc will still be much cheaper..

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Yeah right,

 

The issue is that this is an LSA - and with Part 103, LSA has no value for Australia and many disadvantages. It is uncertain whether this aircraft can be registered as a non-LSA RAAus aircraft. It is non-competitive in terms of its useable load.

 

So what is going for the Cessna 162? Well it looks nice. Oh and it has the Cessna name. Not sure what else.

 

On the other hand in the US it's LSA or nothing. That's what makes it attractive there. Let's not confuse the two markets.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[bushpilot]

The last post by Ozzie in a related thread says it all: http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3942

 

 

[BigPete]

A few thoughts on the New Cessna 162.

 

It will have a continental motor - so:

 

oil filter - around $80 each :yuk:

 

spark plugs - around $38 each

 

and all other spares at a kings ransom!

 

but - it will have that Cessna name tag. ;)

 

regards

 

 

[Yenn]

I talked to the Cessna rep at Bundaberg and he told me it would be coming to Australia in 2009 and the price would be A$130,000, so it will compare well with some of the plastic fantastics already on the market.

 

 

[bushpilot]

After just 3 weeks on the market Cessna now has 720 deposits of $5K each for Skycatcher, or sales value US$75 Million: http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070809005745&newsLang=en

 

 

[HEON]

Around $US110000 is around $A137500 (80c:$1) plus GST is $151250 plus freight etc is ?.Let's say an expensive LSA. Or will there be a "special"price to (attempt) to remove the compertition? Remember what happened to the Victa and other light aircraft in Aust in 60's and 70's

 

 

[BlueSideUp]

I had the opportunity to have a look at the Skycatcher at Oshkosh this year. It looks a neat aircraft but I am not so sure about the engine as it will be a lot more expensive than some others to maintain.

 

I an 6 foot and around 90 Kg's and I did fit so size is reasonable. The control stick they had in the mockup was not all that nice and in fact in the end they had to get someone from the company to sit in the aircraft with people as it was in danger of being broken off. Felt weird to be honest and I would not be surprised if that is changed.

 

They certainly sold a lot at Oshkosh with an electronic counter showing nearly 600 sold during that week. From what was being said a lot were being ordered by flying schools.

 

The new Cirrus SRS LSA looked better to me.

 

 

[Geoff]

[The new Cirrus SRS LSA looked better to me.]

 

Did you get a pic of it (the Cirrus)

 

 

[BlueSideUp]

Yes took a few photo's including in side the cockpit. Need to work out how cut down their size to post them.

 

However this link gives the story and shows photo's taken at Oshkosh this year.

 

http://www.aero-news.net/SpecialContent.cfm?ContentBlockID=6965df6d-6c78-469f-b8fc-8b3cb829359f&cat=27#d

 

 

[Guest brentc]

There's a pic of the Cirrus LSA at the AeroNews link above. I believe it's already a well know ultralight manufacturer that makes it and Cirrus has entered a naming / licencing agreement with them.

 

 

[bushpilot]

Guys,

 

The Cessna Skycatcher official blog http://www.cessnaskycatcher.com/ has 2 posts that I would appreciate comment on from those out there that are wiser then me; they are:

 

Tuesday, 9 October 2007, 10:346 PM[/url]

 

In response to Rory Moore, the Australian government will be recognising and adopting the new LSA rule (both in terms of Aircraft design limits and pilot certificate requirements... i.e. no medical). I recently found a press release on the internet from Federal Minister for Transportation stating this fact. Therefore the Cessna 162 (and other LSA) will qualify under the LSA rule and probably not the recreational aviation class. I don't know if recreational pilots can automatically fly LSA aircraft (although from my understanding they require a third class medical whereas LSA pilots do not). - Christopher

 

...

 

 

 

Tuesday, 9 October 2007, 11:528 AM

 

 

 

What is the stalling speed? There is a requirement in Australia for the stall speed (on landing) to be below 45 knots to qualify for the recreational aviation class. - Rory Moore

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Chris,

 

the first one is confused I think...

 

LSA are already accepted in Australia. There is a wealth of info on the RAAus site and on the CASA site. There are key differences however to the US legislation. The most important is that there is not a 120 knot Vne limitation in Australia as there is in the US.

 

In Australia LSA can be VH or RAAus registered. If RAAus registered you need an RAAus Pilot Certificate with appropriate endorsements (for instance tailwheel if it's a tailwheel, 3 axis if it's 3 axis). If it's VH registered you need a PPL or better.

 

The other issue raised is that of stall speed in the landing configuration. In Australia that is certainly 45 knots or less and I understand that is the case in the US as well.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest browng]

A few thoughts on the New Cessna 162.It will have a continental motor - so:

 

oil filter - around $80 each :yuk:

 

spark plugs - around $38 each

 

and all other spares at a kings ransom!

 

but - it will have that Cessna name tag. ;)

 

regards

I don't know where you are buying oil filters, but I pay US$19.50 for a genuine Champion spin-on filter, and OEM ones like Tempest are around US$15. The rest of the above is true, but not as simple as it sounds. The 0-200 has a TBO at least 25% longer than a Rotax 91X, and decades of history operating 'on condition' well beyond that published TBO. The higher TBO and greater reliability are largely due to the fact that the O-200 is direct drive without the complexity of reduction gear or liquid cooling, and those $38 spark plugs are massive electrode types that need replacing only a fraction as often as the car type plugs used in the Rotax and Jabiru engines. I'm not knocking the Rotax 91X, they are damn fine engines, but the comparison is not an open and shut case by any means, and if I was regularly flying over mountains or long stretches of water, I know which I would be more comfortable sitting behind.

 

 

[facthunter]

Cost comparisons.

 

The price of a new Cont. 0-200 may end up being very competitive, I thought the TBO for the Continental was 2200 Hrs and the Rotax 912s, 1200 hours? Regarding the LSA category, IF we get a weight increase through the 600Kgs to something higher, what good reason to be encumbered with the complexities & limitations of LSA would exist? Nev.......

 

 

[bushpilot]

China hurts Cessna Skycatcher

 

Seems that the decision by Cessna to build the Skycatcher in China has lost them some ground. The following is an industry report from last month - and now Cessna have closed their controversial blog - stopping comments being posted on that decision:

 

Cessna Defends Its China Choice On SkyCatcher Blog

 

Mon, 07 Jan '08

 

Commenters Aren't Buying It... Or, Apparently, The Plane

 

Criticism of Cessna's choice to build the upcoming SkyCatcher LSA in China has grown steadily since the American planemaker announced its decision in December. The company's VP of Marketing, Tom Aniello, responded to those grumblings in a posting last month on the Cessna SkyCatcher blog... acknowledging the debate many of us have heard around pilot lounges, aviation events, and on the pages of several publications.

 

Not surprisingly, Aniello defends the decision -- and stresses the Model 162 will be a true-blue Cessna, despite the "Made In China" label.

 

"Much of the feedback we heard was emotionally charged... However, a great many remarks appeared to be based on incomplete or inaccurate information," Aniello asserts. "We thought you might appreciate some additional insight into Cessna's business decision..."

 

The rest of the posting lays out the 50-plus-year track record of Shenyang Aircraft Company in producing both complete aircraft, and also components for companies including Boeing, Airbus, and Bombardier, and discusses at length the economic forces at work in today's global economy.

 

Aniello closes with assurances that the SkyCatcher will truly be a Cessna, fully backed by Cessna.

 

One month later, most of the 213 responses (at this writing) have been from people who aren't buying the company's arguments -- and say they'll never buy a "Chessna," or any other plane assembled in China.

 

A few, more pragmatic responses acknowledge Cessna's compelling financial reasons for doing so... but still lament the company's decision.

 

The new Skycatcher webpage (replacing their blog) is: www.cessnaskycatcher.com/home/124.html

 

 

[Mazda]

I think there could be a backlash about them being made in China. As I've said before, don't lick the paint!

 

I do think the aircraft is a good idea but I'm yet to find out much from Cessna. They sent me the information kit but it had almost nothing in it! There was a DVD which was a vary broad overview of just a few minutes and not showing much detail. I think the concept is great, people need new trainers - but I hope the reality of the design or build doesn't fall short.

 

I am concerned about history repeating itself - like the Victa situation. I have a Victa and it is one of the nicest aircraft you could fly. It has crisp, light controls, great visibility, can train people from ab initio to spinning and aeros, handles crosswinds well and land beautifully. It's terribly sad that they stopped production while the 152s etc continued. The Victa is a much nicer machine to fly and has lots of clever features. I found it amusing that Cessna have made the 162 with fixed seats and adjustable rudder pedals. The seat can't slip and the pilot's view through the window never changes. Wow, how innovative - just like my 1963 Victa!

 

Anyway, let's hope the 162 lives up to expectations.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

The thing about "Made in China" is they'll do it for whatever price you want to pay for it....and the quality will reflect just that.

 

Having to live with Chinese imported products on my shelf daily, I know how that works. You can have a product manufactured there to the highest specs we imagine, and one made to less, shall we say, stringent (ie. ****ty) standards...and put them side by side and have difficulties telling them apart.

 

The real issue has always been spotting the quality control issues. Mattel knows all about that, with their lead paint on kids toys scandal. If it can catch them out, with their billions spent, Cessna hasn't the same chance.

 

Friend of mine bought a chinese "copy" of a polaris jetski a while back. It redefined the term

 

lemon". Looked fine...sunk repeatedly, caught fire a few times, and even exploded.

 

Cool to watch, not cool to be on.

 

Or fly on.

 

Sure, everything we buy is pretty much made in china nowadays, but for US$110K, I'd expect a damn sight better than that!! IF they brought the pricing down to a fair level to reflect the cheaper manufacturing costs, then fine. However, what idiot would buy a POS chinese import, when they can buy something manufactured in the USA, to stringent quality controls, from their competitor.

 

Food for thought.

 

Scotty