Bydanjohnson Rumours About A New Pipestrel Trainer

[kasper]

17 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

The reporter may have lapped it up, 1000nm commercial flights are now possible with electric. We know the propeller input power required for Cessna Caravan, Beech Kingair, De Havilland dash 8-400 etc. We know how much battery wieght is required to produce the power required for 1000nm flight in these aircraft. Currently they would be lucky to fly 200nm with any useful load. BS doesn't fly. 

Electric is and will happen.

Will it be battery sourced or hydrogen powercell??

 

In my opinion - just like turboprop vs jet - there is a weight/performance crossover between the two.

 

And given commercial aviation is really really REALLY focused on the $$$ on the bottom line commercial aircraft (training or passenger) will rapidly move towards the most effective and efficient power source for their airframes.

 

I am thinking ultralights and two seat trainers are going towards battery whilst commuter airframes will go hydrogen.

 

I'm not alone in this:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/universal-hydrogens-modified-dash-8-flies-again-as-two-year-test-period-commences/155117.article

 

[skippydiesel]

11 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Electric reliable?

Have a look around the suburb at the next hard waste collection.

Have a talk to someone with a car built in the last 5 years; sure most of the repairs are under warranty, but a car off the road for days at a time because it has forgotten how to operate the throttle or thinks it might limp home or shuts down the entire braking system links is worse than a 1962 Holden waiting for a part to come from Melbourne.

I'm with Nev on this - white goods  ha! open them up and see how appallingly they are constructed, even supposedly up market lines are just rubbish, under a fancy exterior. Its no wonder they fail usually just outside of warranty.

 

As for cars - there seems to have been an over reaction/confidence by manufacturers to the automotive application of computers.

My computer understanding is embryonic,  however I do have some idea of redundancy - car manufactures would seem to be " loading" a single computer with every conceivable function within the vehicle. This is pure bollocks!

The engine & transmission should be on a dedicated computer system, with in built redundancy & " limp" mode.

All other functions eg window up/down, windshield wipers, lights, seat movement, etc should be returned to old style direct (no computer involvement) driver control or if a computer must be used it should be  separate system to above .

[FlyBoy1960]

All of the freight trains have been diesel electric for years and years, the diesel is basically just a generator for the electric motors (i am told)

The electric carrying hundreds of tons are being used now by a co-owner of google, Sergy something. 80 kn speed, days endurance and a 200 ton payload apparently. You can see them in Moriarty New Mexico and Moffett Field in San Francisco

[kgwilson]

There are many manufactures working to produce viable elctrically powered aircraft with plenty at the prototype stage and hundreds of battery technologies under development.

 

I just bought an electric car. It is fantastic. Instant torque power, no noise, no vibration, & more high tech functions than I can count. It will be old tech within a few years due to the massive increase in battery and electric motor technology and everything that surrounds that. 7 year unlimited warranty with CATL estimating 1 milliom kM before battery degradation will require a replacement. 1000 kM range and more is already here. Sodium is replacing lithium at 1/3 of the cost with the energy density now rivalling lithium. 

 

Internal combustion is on the way out and fossil fuels will run out in 30 years or so. I predict that many of the current electric propotype aircraft will be in full production in 5 to 6 years. Ignore it if you like but it is coming, like it or not.

[facthunter]

I've faith in it (electric) and I'm an old fogey. THEY are supposed to be resistant to change.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

KG - "................ fossil fuels will run out in 30 years or so." 

 

While I agree that fossil fuel must be a finite resource (millions of years to replace) predictions about  its scarcity/running out have, to this date, been vastly overblown.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

My computer understanding is embryonic,  however I do have some idea of redundancy - car manufactures would seem to be " loading" a single computer with every conceivable function within the vehicle.

You're talking about a very old design there. Today's Prime Movers have about 18 computers on board.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

All of the freight trains have been diesel electric for years and years, the diesel is basically just a generator for the electric motors (i am told)

That's correct.

 

Most capital cities in Australia also had fleets of electric buses and the passenger trains today are electric.

 

But the comparison with the BEV or BEA are similar to trying to compare golf with football, both certainly involving a ball.

 

 

[kasper]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

I'm with Nev on this - white goods  ha! open them up and see how appallingly they are constructed, even supposedly up market lines are just rubbish, under a fancy exterior. Its no wonder they fail usually just outside of warranty.

 

As for cars - there seems to have been an over reaction/confidence by manufacturers to the automotive application of computers.

My computer understanding is embryonic,  however I do have some idea of redundancy - car manufactures would seem to be " loading" a single computer with every conceivable function within the vehicle. This is pure bollocks!

The engine & transmission should be on a dedicated computer system, with in built redundancy & " limp" mode.

All other functions eg window up/down, windshield wipers, lights, seat movement, etc should be returned to old style direct (no computer involvement) driver control or if a computer must be used it should be  separate system to above .

Well my 10 year old Ford has three computers - all segregated in what they cover within the engine/gearbox/rest of car and two of them need to be synched to each other to allow the double clutch automatic/manual gearbox to work.

 

Yes its 'fun' when one computer downs tools and has a sleep  ... but in my experience this just results in a christmas tree worth of coloured lights on the dash and/or a choice of several failure/warning messages to display and it goes into self preservation mode - usually I can limp home.

 

So no second redundant computer but a set of computers that do have protocols for failure and reduced use operations.

[facthunter]

They are really microprocessors I would think. They rely a lot on sensors. That's 1/2 the problem as well as stuck codes and modem failures.  Nev

[kasper]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

They are really microprocessors I would think. They rely a lot on sensors. That's 1/2 the problem as well as stuck codes and modem failures.  Nev

I think you need to reconsider .... a computer will contain 1 or several microprocessors - they are the calculation engine of the computer.

A computer in most equipment will have the operating instructions - the programs - stored in a PProm/CProm/non-disc memory unit.

Attached to the two items above will be various senors giving the computer the data it needs to manage and apply the operating instructions. 

 

So if someone says that the car has three computers ...  they are by implication saying there are at least three microprocessors and probably 4+ times as many sensors in and around the vehicle

 

Overall I think most car companies have done a decent job on getting all of that to work with good reliability and safety in what is a very unfriendly environment compared to the majority of computer equipment.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't claim to be an expert. Just observing what most problems tend to get down to.  Nev

[onetrack]

All vehicles for at least the last 25 years have had CANbus architecture installed - the system used to ensure that ECU's, microprocessors and sensors can all communicate with each other.

It is one of the most important developments since the silicon chip. CANbus architecture is used in a myriad of machines, not just cars, trucks and aeroplanes.

We would never have the integrated functionality of modern electronics without the CANbus system.

 

https://www.can-cia.org/can-knowledge/can/can-history/#:~:text=In February of 1986%2C Robert,most successful network protocols ever.

 

ECU's, microprocessors and sensors in automotive applications are reasonably reliable today. The greatest single failings of electronics in automotive applications today is inadequate protection of harnesses and connectors, and major contaminants such as water, dust, chemicals from soil and air getting into these areas. Damage whilst in use, and faulty assembly, are the other areas that produce faults.

 

Electronics are complex on IC-engined equipment, because IC engines in themselves are complex devices, with many demands for rapidly changing inputs and controls. Electric motors are much simpler, they only require input power and a method of controlling it. Regenerative braking or battery regeneration under deceleration is a huge hidden asset of electric motive power.

 

Vast amounts of energy are wasted by IC engines - in wasted heat, in unnecessary fuel burnt just to keep things ticking over. An electric motor only draws the level of current and produces the power output required for any particular time and level of power demand. Once a vehicle is rolling, only a tiny amount of power is needed to keep it rolling. An IC engine produces far more power than needed, under light load.

 

Aircraft are a somewhat different kettle of fish as major power draw is needed to take off and climb to the selected flight level. But even in level flight, aircraft demand more power to keep up the desired speed, as aerodynamic drag is a massive drawback to cruising through the sky.

So, electric aircraft will always be behind the 8-ball, as compared to road vehicles, and until major gains are made in battery lightness and energy density, pure electric aircraft will never ever be competitive for anything more than short hops. On that basis, I see hybrid power as being more likely to be the power source for longer-haul electric aircraft in the future.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by onetrack
clarity....

[skippydiesel]

Drove my Sons new  Ford Everest recently - not for me Josephine!

It has  zero personality, is a quiet as an electric vehicle,  incredibly smooth, all sorts of driver assist systems, massive computer screen in the centre of the dash, a list of gimmicks that require the computer screen to list/activate - boring as.

[kgwilson]

It doesn't have zero emissions though. Diesels are the worst emitters.

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, kgwilson said:

There are many manufactures working to produce viable elctrically powered aircraft with plenty at the prototype stage and hundreds of battery technologies under development.

 

I just bought an electric car. It is fantastic. Instant torque power, no noise, no vibration, & more high tech functions than I can count. It will be old tech within a few years due to the massive increase in battery and electric motor technology and everything that surrounds that. 7 year unlimited warranty with CATL estimating 1 milliom kM before battery degradation will require a replacement. 1000 kM range and more is already here. Sodium is replacing lithium at 1/3 of the cost with the energy density now rivalling lithium. 

 

Internal combustion is on the way out and fossil fuels will run out in 30 years or so. I predict that many of the current electric propotype aircraft will be in full production in 5 to 6 years. Ignore it if you like but it is coming, like it or not.

Your Ev car will be great when your sitting at a Roadhouse number 10 in line for a charger 

 

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, kgwilson said:

There are many manufactures working to produce viable elctrically powered aircraft with plenty at the prototype stage and hundreds of battery technologies under development.

 

I just bought an electric car. It is fantastic. Instant torque power, no noise, no vibration, & more high tech functions than I can count. It will be old tech within a few years due to the massive increase in battery and electric motor technology and everything that surrounds that. 7 year unlimited warranty with CATL estimating 1 milliom kM before battery degradation will require a replacement. 1000 kM range and more is already here. Sodium is replacing lithium at 1/3 of the cost with the energy density now rivalling lithium. 

 

Internal combustion is on the way out and fossil fuels will run out in 30 years or so. I predict that many of the current electric propotype aircraft will be in full production in 5 to 6 years. Ignore it if you like but it is coming, like it or not.

like fossil fuels were supposed to run out in the seventies.

[BrendAn]

 

[Thruster88]

Even battery tech that gives cars 2000km range will be of limited value for commercial aircraft. You just need a calculator. Weight is not much of a problem for cars, for aircraft remember the four forces that act on aircraft.  

[facthunter]

Fossil fuels will just get more expensive. Some fields do run out. Bass strait as an example. To use more will jeopardise the stability of the climate.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

It doesn't have zero emissions though. Diesels are the worst emitters.

Here was me thinking fossil fuel heating & electrical generating was at the top of the list.

 

Hp for Hp delivered to the drive wheels, I doubt (don't know) diesels are any worse than petrol and may be a lot better. Could that be one of the reasons why all our commercials (inc diesel electric trains) run on diesel , not petrol. We have two Hyundai 130's 0ne 2 L petrol, one 1.6L Turbo diesel - guess which one does under 5L/100 Km around our district and better on a freeway run?

 

Electric cars are far from zero emission/zero polluting when you take into account production  & (current) electrical generation and then there is the damage to roads from being a  heavier vehicles, more tyre wear (micro rubber), etc etc - 

[skippydiesel]

50 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Fossil fuels will just get more expensive. Some fields do run out. Bass strait as an example. To use more will jeopardise the stability of the climate.  Nev

Agreed however this does not support the statement, oft heard throughout my lifetime, that fossil fuels will run out sometime soon - Unfortunately if the demand/need is there, new/fresh deposits will almost certainly be exploited - look what our Gov's are doing with coal right now.

[kgwilson]

Well that brought all the dinosaurs out. Plenty of opinions but no evidence. 

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

Well that brought all the dinosaurs out. Plenty of opinions but no evidence. 

My vehicles burn dinosaurs and work very well. 

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Well that brought all the dinosaurs out. Plenty of opinions but no evidence. 

Perchance you are referring to my opinion(s)?

 

If so I plead guilty to the "no (empirical) evidence" however the evidence of Australian commercial equipment of all types changing from petrol to diesel fuel , from around the 1960's,  suggests to me not just a cheaper (no longer) fuel but also more effective (diesel engines ability to deliver torque). EG Tow pumps of the same capacity (L/hr), one diesel the other petrol powered - the diesel will deliver more water for a lot less fuel consumption - less fuel burnt = less pollutants. Then compare oil refining  - diesel requires less refining than petrol = less energy used = less pollutants.

 

I am not trying to make a case against electrical power (which is far from zero emission) just pointing out that the argument is not as straight forward as many would have us believe.