Atsb Report Into Old Bar Incident

[winsor68]

And the biggest problem for us all... Our Ra-Aus was supposed to be overseeing it all...

 

 

[David Isaac]

And the biggest problem for us all... Our Ra-Aus was supposed to be overseeing it all...

Yep and my information is that this accident has highlighted issues upon which the new Board has immediately acted. I as a RA Aus member am happy to see an appropriate response by our organisation led by a new President and Board. Here's hoping for a professional response to the discoveries of a thorough ATSB report.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What did they do David?

 

I imagine they wouldn't have hung around too long to talk to the person doing the stunt flying, but haven't heard anything else.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I don't know what they have done about the stunt flying allegation this time round, but RA Aus have issued on the RA Aus web site:

 

Date: 29 November 2011

 

RECREATIONAL AIRCRAFT AIRWORTHINESS NOTICE

 

AIRWORTHINESS NOTICE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER: RA-Aus 251111-2

 

Light Sport Aircraft Requirement to have a Special Certificate of Airworthiness LSA issued

 

To: All owners and operators of LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) and E-LSA (Experimental Light Sport Aircraft) Aircraft.

 

Background: During a recent Audit it was flagged that several aircraft files were deficient: In that the file did not contain a Copy of the Certificate of Airworthiness.

 

When LSA aircraft are registered with RA-Aus they receive a FULL registration certificate.

 

The registration certificate in this case is not a permission to fly, the aircraft can only be flown when a Special Certificate of Airworthiness LSA or E-LSA is issued by a CASA authorised person and a copy of this certificate is received by RA-Aus.

 

It is also a requirement of the Australian Civil Aviation Act that all aircraft which do not have an exemption against the requirement, must have a C of A issued and carry it in the aircraft during operation. RA-Aus registered LSA and E-LSA aircraft do not have an exemption against this requirement.

 

Action Required:

 

BEFORE NEXT FLIGHT: If you are the owner of a LSA or E-LSA certified aircraft, check that you have in your possession a signed copy of a Special C of A in the appropriate category. If you do not have a valid C of A contact RA-Aus (Technical Manager) to check that there is one on file. If a Special C of A LSA or a Special C of A Experimental LSA has never been issued, contact a CASA Authorised person to have one issued, (remember this is for LSA and E-LSA aircraft only, all other RA-Aus are exempted against this requirement).

 

Technical Manager

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well that was easy - quote the regulations and ask everyone to have a look, but what about the spot audits to see what our favourite aircraft suppliers have been up to?

 

 

[David Isaac]

I think the real issue there is the cost and resourcing of surveillance for RA Aus, the cost of which would be passed on to all of us.

 

Would it not be far more effective to have an appropriate CAR 35 engineer, or RA Aus equivalent; (well what I mean is someone who knows how aircraft are built, not someone with a degree in engineering straight out of university), to audit facilities on defined schedules at the cost of the Certified aircraft builder and to ensure that the Audit body was chosen by RA Aus not the manufacturer? We would indirectly wear this cost as well but at least there would be commercial constraints in place that only the aircraft purchasers would wear.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, something like that.

 

 

[djpacro]

Well that was easy - quote the regulations and ask everyone to have a look, but what about the spot audits to see what our favourite aircraft suppliers have been up to?

They didn't actually quote the regulation correctly. Within Australia, there is no requirement to carry the CofA in the aeroplane.

And the biggest problem for us all... Our Ra-Aus was supposed to be overseeing it all...

CASA is responsible for the oversight of manufacture of LSA. Interesting to compare CASA's level of interest compared to the FAA's in their oversight of the Skycatcher.

 

 

[Guest avi8tr]

I once went in an aircraft of the same type and declared I never would again for several reasons. Seems like I made a good choice when I made that decision some two years ago.

 

 

[Spin]

I once went in an aircraft of the same type and declared I never would again for several reasons. Seems like I made a good choice when I made that decision some two years ago.

Interested to know, why was that? I know David commented about the overly sensitive pitch control, does that mean more so than other all flying tailplanes - any other issues that concerned you? As I'd commented elsewhere, up until now the chorus of praise singers has drowned out any negative comments, to the extent that I'd thought that when the opportunity presented itself I'd like to take a closer look - might not be so keen now, unfortunately.

 

 

[Guest avi8tr]

Yes, mostly around pitch. Poorly designed fully flying tail plane, pitch sensitive bit not only that, it won't hold on the horizon, all over the place, desperately needs an anti-servo tab like Pipers have. Don't like the elevator attachment plus many other features that make the aircraft look like it was assembled from components purchased at Bunnings Warehouse.

 

Much of the hype around the aircraft that you speak of was stirred up by one particular person on a forum elsewhere in an effort to steer people towards this aircraft versus another type but I suspect with zero knowledge of the prodcuct actually being recommended.

 

For their price they are probably a good buy if professionally assembled. Really just goes to show that you get exactly what you pay for these days.

 

Those that suggest that the aircraft is super strong of bullet proof due to the way it "held up" in the crash are simply uneducated in engineering principles. There is no way to compare what would happen to any other aircraft type in this situation.

 

 

[Guest DWB]

One of these was actually on my short list for a kit build when I got the Zephyr. I must admit just about anyone with any knowledge of them told me it would be a bad move, but I thought at least assembling it myself I would discover its shortcomings if I recognised them. Of course therein lies the danger, I'm not an aircraft fitter or anything else, but at least know that 2 pieces of riveted material require the rivet to go through both pieces with some surrounding meat. It was also pointed out to me by a CFI who was familiar with them that the flying stabiliser was in 2 pieces & joined by a riveted shaft & he had witnessed these come loose from each other. Then he told me about all the rivets coming loose generally. I actually saw a pilot/owner at Cessnock one day silastic-ing loose rivets??? I still think they could be a good plane but I think its also good that this has surfaced for all concerned if not with a fair degree of sadness for all concerned & that is RAA generally.

 

 

[Guest Darren Masters]

One of these was actually on my short list for a kit build when I got the Zephyr. I must admit just about anyone with any knowledge of them told me it would be a bad move, but I thought at least assembling it myself I would discover its shortcomings if I recognised them. Of course therein lies the danger, I'm not an aircraft fitter or anything else, but at least know that 2 pieces of riveted material require the rivet to go through both pieces with some surrounding meat. It was also pointed out to me by a CFI who was familiar with them that the flying stabiliser was in 2 pieces & joined by a riveted shaft & he had witnessed these come loose from each other. Then he told me about all the rivets coming loose generally. I actually saw a pilot/owner at Cessnock one day silastic-ing loose rivets??? I still think they could be a good plane but I think its also good that this has surfaced for all concerned if not with a fair degree of sadness for all concerned & that is RAA generally.

Let's not even compare the Zephyr ;)

 

 

[Guest DWB]

Let's not even compare the Zephyr ;)

No Darren it's not my intention to do that. I doubt there hasn't been a plane built that hasn't had its fair share of shortcomings, Zephyr's included. I've had pilots tell me they don't like the way the stabiliser is attached to the Zephyr, some don't like it because it's a "T" Tail & "T" tails aren't pretty in a stall (which isn't true in this case) Maybe I shouldn't have commented in my "new" position. I don't own the best, nor the worst for that matter.

 

 

[dazza 38]

As Australian metal LSA aircraft goes.IMO the Brumby is the best that i have seen.You can tell that they are built by Aircraft engineers. There are non australian metal aircraft that are built well as well.Im wondering if some manufacturers have ever heard of adel clamps to clamp wiring looms.Especial FWF.Zip ties are good as well for looms.Should not used to secure wires to fuel lines.Thats a no brainer.IMO

 

I better add there are other all metal aircraft in Australia eg- The Hornet.I have never had a look at one.They look by Scotty's photos to be well desiqned as well.

 

 

[Guest Darren Masters]

No Darren it's not my intention to do that. I doubt there hasn't been a plane built that hasn't had its fair share of shortcomings, Zephyr's included. I've had pilots tell me they don't like the way the stabiliser is attached to the Zephyr, some don't like it because it's a "T" Tail & "T" tails aren't pretty in a stall (which isn't true in this case) Maybe I shouldn't have commented in my "new" position. I don't own the best, nor the worst for that matter.

I hope you know I meant mine in a well-hearted way? :)

 

 

[metalman]

there's a culture in Oz that we cut down the tall poppy, sometimes this backfires on us when things like this happen, I have had a look over the morgan aircraft at a few flyins and was pretty unimpressed, I thought they were just rough, I have a mate who does builder assistance with RV's and the quality is worlds apart. I stayed out of a lot of the discussions on these and plenty of other aircraft as I didn't want to be seen to "bag" another Ozzie trying to make a go of it, I still resist really letting fly cause there is a lot of people who have bought these aircraft in good faith and I'd hate to see them done wrong. Hopefully Morgans can move on ,but i would be a liar to say I'd fly in one ,

 

 

[Scotty 1]

I better add there are other all metal aircraft in Australia eg- The Hornet.I have never had a look at one.They look by Scotty's photos to be well desiqned as well.

Chalk and cheese in all ways is all I'll say

 

Cheers Scotty

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

w

 

there's a culture in Oz that we cut down the tall poppy, sometimes this backfires on us when things like this happen, I have had a look over the morgan aircraft at a few flyins and was pretty unimpressed, I thought they were just rough, I have a mate who does builder assistance with RV's and the quality is worlds apart. I stayed out of a lot of the discussions on these and plenty of other aircraft as I didn't want to be seen to "bag" another Ozzie trying to make a go of it, I still resist really letting fly cause there is a lot of people who have bought these aircraft in good faith and I'd hate to see them done wrong. Hopefully Morgans can move on ,but i would be a liar to say I'd fly in one ,

We live in 'Oz' and we are 'Aussies'

 

 

[Guest avi8tr]

Whilst I don't necessarily like the "lines" of the Brumby it does appear to be a very well finished off aircraft and when I saw the builders talking to their prop supplier about a tiny scratch on the blade of a newly supplied prop, I knew hey were perfectionists and the final finish of their aircraft was a testament to their skills. Chalk and cheese it would seem between these two aircraft types. It would seem that the Morgan aircraft are cheap to purchase and perhaps I should leave it there.

 

 

[winsor68]

I think the real issue there is the cost and resourcing of surveillance for RA Aus, the cost of which would be passed on to all of us.Would it not be far more effective to have an appropriate CAR 35 engineer (or RA Aus equivalent) to audit facilities on defined schedules at the cost of the Certified aircraft builder and to ensure that the Audit body was chosen by RA Aus not the manufacturer? We would indirectly wear this cost as well but at least there would be commercial constraints in place that only the aircraft purchasers would wear.

I think any reasonable person would assume that Ra-Aus already performs this function... the fact that our organization failed to meet this minimum is what is most alarming to me... Time to ask some serious questions in my opinion.

 

 

[David Isaac]

there's a culture in Oz that we cut down the tall poppy, sometimes this backfires on us when things like this happen, I have had a look over the morgan aircraft at a few flyins and was pretty unimpressed, I thought they were just rough, I have a mate who does builder assistance with RV's and the quality is worlds apart. I stayed out of a lot of the discussions on these and plenty of other aircraft as I didn't want to be seen to "bag" another Ozzie trying to make a go of it, I still resist really letting fly cause there is a lot of people who have bought these aircraft in good faith and I'd hate to see them done wrong. Hopefully Morgans can move on ,but i would be a liar to say I'd fly in one ,

Hi Matt,

Unfortunately kit aircraft are only ever as good as the builder either has the inclination for them to be or as poor as the lack of skill of the builder. There are plenty of GA aircraft out there that I would not fly due shonky maintenance by LAMEs of dubious reputation. So in fairness to this situation making an issue of these Morgan discrepancies in the obvious knowledge that many of us have about shonky practices across the industry is a bit harsh on Morgan.

 

Sure this report shows clearly some unprofessional practices, but I will speculatively guarantee there will never be another Morgan Factory Build aircraft with the defects the ATSB report revealed because Morgan Aeroworks will have rectified their practices. What about all the other shonky practices out there in RAA and GA land, are they going to have a little private wake up call over this????? How lucky have Jabiru been that one of their engine failures hasn't killed anyone yet.

 

This report will be a wake up call for Morgan and for the rest of the industry who do SIMILAR things and this is NOT isolated to Morgan. In all reality everyone who has a Morgan is going to go over their aircraft and fix the things that have been highlighted or other things they may have done to their aircraft.

 

Every time there is an accident like this it will expose the aircraft involved to a fairly high level of scrutiny.

 

I'll bet there are few people out there who have put kits together and also factory build aircraft at the moment thinking "there but for the grace of God go I ...".

 

Lets make sure we collectively take this on board as a lesson to all and not let it turn into a destroy RAA and Australian Manufacturing. We know the problem, so does Gary Morgan, so let us collectively learn and let us collectively fix the problem, and move on.

 

 

[Guest Michael Coates]

How lucky have xxxxx been that one of their engine failures hasn't killed anyone yet.

You obviously don't know about the class action based out of Texas, USA for 7 fatalities behind their engines. The lawyers were doing the rounds at Oshkosh earlier this year basically coming up in saying.... "We are starting a class action against the said engine manufacturer on behalf of families with a number of fatalities in the US... do you know of any said engine accidents that have contributed towards loss, injury or death" these are as close to the exact words as I can remember. I first heard of this about two years ago on the Internet but this year they were actively sourcing information first-hand information at Oshkosh.

 

The way I see it, LSA manufacturers in Europe have to comply with not only ASTM regulations but also with the regulations of their local CAA and this includes building the aircraft to a known standard which includes accepted aviation practices otherwise they lose their production licence.

 

If I wanted to start up manufacturing aircraft in Australia myself I simply claim that I meet the ASTM standards without any local CAA involvement. It would require a CASA appointed inspector to come and have a look at my facility and that my paperwork trail ensuring that I was complying with the accepted ASTM standards. The big problem with the standards is they are based around paperwork rather than manufacturing standards and I see this happening everywhere! Some inspectors couldn't care less if the plane was airworthy or otherwise all they are interested in is if the paperwork is correct!

 

All of this is my opinion only.

 

 

[David Isaac]

No I didn't know that Michael, it was in all probability only a matter of time.

 

 

[metalman]

You obviously don't know about the class action based out of Texas, USA for 7 fatalities behind their engines. The lawyers were doing the rounds at Oshkosh earlier this year basically coming up in saying.... "We are starting a class action against the said engine manufacturer on behalf of families with a number of fatalities in the US... do you know of any said engine accidents that have contributed towards loss, injury or death" these are as close to the exact words as I can remember. I first heard of this about two years ago on the Internet but this year they were actively sourcing information first-hand information at Oshkosh.The way I see it, LSA manufacturers in Europe have to comply with not only ASTM regulations but also with the regulations of their local CAA and this includes building the aircraft to a known standard which includes accepted aviation practices otherwise they lose their production licence.

 

If I wanted to start up manufacturing aircraft in Australia myself I simply claim that I meet the ASTM standards without any local CAA involvement. It would require a CASA appointed inspector to come and have a look at my facility and that my paperwork trail ensuring that I was complying with the accepted ASTM standards. The big problem with the standards is they are based around paperwork rather than manufacturing standards and I see this happening everywhere! Some inspectors couldn't care less if the plane was airworthy or otherwise all they are interested in is if the paperwork is correct!

 

All of this is my opinion only.

as with most government dept ,it all comes down to paper work,,,,,, common sense, reality, best practices ,proven engineering all mean nothing if the pencil d1ck behind the desk is on a power trip ,fact is they don't actually know what is right, just what paperwork needs to be filled out. Try getting the same answer from three different people in ### transport on the same day,for the same question, hasn't been done yet and I doubt it ever will ,,,,I'm speaking of the automotive industry ,,,,,in another country,,,,,we don't have that problem here with the wonderful folks at DoTARS ,,,,,,and the state depts, god bless em!