Why do i need an instructor

[68volksy]

So we should probably be comparing the minimum hours for grant of an instructor rating then rather than the minimum hours for the CPL? I don;t have my CASR's here but from the amendments regulation - just to compare apples with apples....

 

61.1185 Requirements for grant of flight instructor ratings

 

2 (d) (ii) in any other case:

 

(A) at least 200 hours flight time as a pilot; and

 

(B) at least 100 hours flight time as pilot in command.

 

But again this is not my point.

 

 

[68volksy]

Volsky. That's magnificent. vol (flight, in French). Sky (we know what that is).. Nev

I think i'll have to correct the spelling of my avatar! Thanks FH.

 

 

[Teckair]

They were simply the only two aircraft I could think of that might have been around at the time the decisions were made.

Back then there were Thrusters, Drifters and Lightwings used as trainers. My comment was more about your assumption about how easy it was to teach someone to fly a Thruster which I regard as incorrect. I feel the 75 hour thing was appropriate. As FH has said there is a lot more happening in an ultralight per hour than a GA plane. Teaching people to fly is not always easy it can be quite demanding especially the landing phase, I think you are selling RAAus instructors short.

 

 

[Ultralights]

so where does the PMI course fit into all this?

 

 

[facthunter]

It is one thing to know how to do something. It is something else to pass this knowledge effectively to somebody else. That is where PMI comes in. It is a bit difficult for me to work out how something that took me. and any body else enrolled, two years of full time study to equate with a maximum of four days in the aviation environment. Not all ACE plots can pass it on without knowing how to.. Training is why ordinary people eventually can fly Jumbos competently. They don't train themselves..Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

You only have to go to sport for your many many examples of how someone who is good at something is not necessarily a good instructor. Many of the best players in various sports have made woeful coaches, because they lack the ability to teach and convey information to others. This was a pet study of mine at uni as a specialist educator and my primary focus was on sports examples. Eg : Magic Johnson, Wally Lewis (GC Seagulls), Wayne Gretzky, Diego Maradona and the list goes on.

 

In fact several studies have shown that being good at something has very little correlation to being able to teach it well. At an elite level the correlation between skill and ability to coach is generally slightly higher, eg an elite aerobatics pilot, but at a beginner to intermediate level, often for those coaches who have been elite, this can be more of a hindrance then a benefit. Often the attitudes that go hand in hand with elite participants preclude them from being able to relate to beginners and being able to devlope the skills of those who dont pick it up naturally or quickly. You cant teach something without knowing the skills, but just having the skills in no way means you can teach it well.

 

Clearly in a two seat plane the instructor needs to be able to fly as the student cant initially, but being a top gun or even a very good pilot doesn't mean you can teach it well.

 

Generally speaking the best teachers and coaches are those who can develop every student to their potential, not just the good ones. And often the best educators are the ones who can grab the worst student and make them shine.

 

Ive always said the measure of a good coach is how well they can make their worst players perform.

 

 

[facthunter]

Someone who finds flying easy and gets everything right first time around may have a bit if difficulty understanding why someone else may hit a wall, on some matters. The instructor has to get to the students level and sometimes come from another angle to make the point. In the forces you just scrubbed the percentage that was normal for the times. Bad luck if you were among a group of exceptionally good people. This can't be done these days, although there may be some who should not be flying. This has to be a possibility occasionally. Hopefully it becomes evident before something crook happens. I think the Red Baron crashed three planes during his training..Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79LaIL6x5d0

[motzartmerv]

I don't know of any instructors that got into it because they thought they were such great pilots they should pass on their adobe average skills. Infact I know a few that did the rating because by wanted nothin more than to improve their skills and knowledge.

 

A good instructor is something you can't quantify into a simple sentence or paragraph on a forum. Some of the best instructors I have felt I've learned from I havnt even flown with. Instructing is much more than just being able to teach someone to land, or fly in balance, or give a good radio call. A good instructor is a pilot that others look up to and attempt to emulate. IMHO. Teaching in the aeroplane is only part of the job.

 

 

[johnm]

I am not an instructor

 

Volksy - the comments about under the bridge where tough and not called for - those bloody instructors do live up high so you'll just have to agree that they are not as perfect as what they think they are

 

..................... I don't reckon that if you are a bad instructor you will always be a bad one - surely that must be training and persistence that can change to good also - just like learning to fly. We all start off knowing nothing and we learn along the way

 

................ to be a good instructor does not mean being a member of an exclusive club. You could argue that of all the pilots out there there is lots of good instructor material - its just they prefer to pull the heads of chickens, fix cars, paint houses, etc - they have and will not ever consider being a flying instructor - maybe because there appears to be enough of them anyway

 

I'd say I have 10 instrucors and there was always a wide variation in their character and teaching style - never a bad one that I can recall - along the way I have seen myself and some instructors make silly mistakes - all quiet a worthwhile social interaction really

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I am not an instructoryou'll just have to agree that they are not as perfect as what they think they are

Is that really called for? Find me a single post where any Instructor has claimed to be prefect and ill eat my hat.. People do take objection to others posting comments about the ease and simplicity of attainment, and when the comments go as far as saying you just need to pay the money and you'll have a ticket is not only insulting but does certainly qualify the "troll" description as its completely unsubstantiated and inflammatory.

 

When anybody post's an opinion about the process or the requirements then its pretty obvious that if that person has not completed the process in question then they really are not qualified to make any sort of "educated' statement about that process. Having BEEN instructed does not qualify one to judge the EASE at which that instructor obtained their rating.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think you will find in most "schools' or clubs, where there are flying instructors about, that they will be expected to have the answers to all questions, and be automatically put on the spot by anyone on any matter for free, at any time. so who is expecting them to be all things to all people?.

 

I can't recall any instructor thinking they are perfect.. You will occasionally find pilots of all types, who think they don't make mistakes or need any help. Time usually sorts them out. Nev

 

 

[68volksy]

Is that really called for? Find me a single post where any Instructor has claimed to be prefect and ill eat my hat.. People do take objection to others posting comments about the ease and simplicity of attainment, and when the comments go as far as saying you just need to pay the money and you'll have a ticket is not only insulting but does certainly qualify the "troll" description as its completely unsubstantiated and inflammatory.When anybody post's an opinion about the process or the requirements then its pretty obvious that if that person has not completed the process in question then they really are not qualified to make any sort of "educated' statement about that process. Having BEEN instructed does not qualify one to judge the EASE at which that instructor obtained their rating.

For goodness sake!

 

A 30 hour course cannot be difficult in any sense of the word. Even if it takes you 120 hours to pass it's not exactly a phd in advanced physics! Yes it would take some hard work and some learning but really? Trying to make it out as being attainable only by those with the grit and determination of Mawson is really stretching the limit.

 

Taking the rating and actually building on it to make a good instructor is the challenge. Unfortunately the new student knows not the true difference between a 20 year or 20 thousand hour veteran and a 1 year or 100 hour kid.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, but there is more to than just paying the money yea? If its so easy, why doesnt everybody do it./ Why haven't you?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Your qualification that people just pay the money has rendered any "opinion ' you have as Moot mate.. Everything else is just dribble.

 

 

[68volksy]

Yes, but there is more to than just paying the money yea? If its so easy, why doesnt everybody do it./ Why haven't you?

Same reason not everyone has learnt to fly I suppose. Some people love flying, some don't. Some people love teaching, some don't. Personally I'd make an atrocious teacher due to my impatience and tendency to get distracted by shiny things...

 

Just out of curiosity (and seeing as you've made this personal) how many people have undertaken an instructors course with you and have not then gone on and passed their test?

 

 

[johnm]

Merv - an instructor's flying will be closer to perfection than my flying will ever be

 

On the question of who can make an educated statement about instruction (assuming thats what you said) - I am educated in flying a plane and any discussion regarding instruction I am interested in - thats why I am having a go at the discussion. I am also assuming there is no erthereal concept us uneducated are breeching ?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

None, I test them myself. I've had a couple need lots more work on the briefings etc. They need to give a long briefing on every flying sequence. It's far from easy to be able to stand up in front of a whiteboard and talk for 40 minutes on climbing ( for example) . The 30 hours you quoted is no where near the money. The process is long and arduous for them as they prepare and deliver each long ( and short) briefing, and then make the adjustments we ask for, then deliver it again.. And so on. For each sequence.

 

Te actual class room hours would be much more than 30 hours. An then the PMI on top of all that.

 

Then there is the flying standar and patter. And if you think that's easy then think again. It doesn't require ( god like) skill, but they do need to be very accurate with their flying and be able to talk about what they are doing.

 

I can tell you, seeing as you asked, it is far from simple and easy. It requires a huge effort. A lot fall by the way as the work is much more than google tells them it will be;)

 

I'm not sure what your point is exactly, apart from having digs at instructors. But it would be great if you arrived at it soon.

 

You are correct, it isn't a phd in physics, but it requires a huge effort . I won't argue that point with you. Having trained and tested half a dozen or so, and been directly involved in the training of dozens more, I can say with reasonable authority that it is quite a challenge.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

John. My comments related to statements made about how easy it is by people who have not done it. Was not having a go mate.

 

 

[facthunter]

I can't imagine a job in the RAAus having more responsibility attached to it than training Flying Instructors. The next level is the CFI's who run the schools but they have a less intense involvement usually working with only one at a time but play a key part in how effective the instruction is carried out.. since this thread started out with "Why do I need an instructor?" To cover the whole gamut and defend the function and purpose of having instructors is a large ask.

 

Volksy, you do appear to have an axe to grind with "some" instructors. I try to be impartial. I know Andy is a very dedicated instructor, and I'm not surprised he defends the group he belongs to under the circumstances . Nev

 

 

[68volksy]

My real point related to the original question - ie why can't we all simply be taught by someone with experience. My point was that in RA-Aus especially there is not as much difference as people generally believe between someone with experience and someone with an instructors rating. Generally it's simply a course taken over a couple of weeks. Yes some may find that course hard but I haven't found anyone yet that's given it a go and not got through. And that is probably the way it should be in RA-Aus to keep costs down and passion high.

 

I was in no way having a dig at instructors generally. I'm not one to give insight into my life beyond the keyboard but let's just say that instructors contribute a lot to my way of life. The dodgy instructors with their cornflake packet ratings and the schools that take their money undermine the very fabric of my aviation world. They also keep money out of the pockets of the truly capable and dedicated pilots who'd contribute a lot more to the aviation world if they could afford to do so. Everyone in this industry loves it with a passion however I do not believe it is everyone's god-given right to become an instructor. The amount of young kids I see out there willing to work for next to nothing are ruining aviation in my eyes and taking jobs from the 20 year veterans who have so much more to contribute. Since when did instructing become the domain of the 19 year old! No other industry in the world that I can think of promotes the training of fresh new students by those who've only just graduated themselves. I don't think many universities or colleges would employ a newly minted graduate to a lecturing position.

 

It's even more rife in GA. It turns my stomach to see so many CPL's with 250 hours who've been trained by CPL's with 250 hours who've been trained by CPL's with 250 hours who then get an instructors rating and off they go teaching new pilots themselves. I am very fearful that the general and recreational aviation industry, in removing age and experience from its very footings, is doomed for collapse.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I see your point. But I do t think it's a new thing. It's been that way for some time. I have an idea I know what's bugging you and know some of the people involved . I did a rating for someone up that way a few months ago, I'm sure you could easily find out who. Ask him if he thought his test was easy;)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Generally it's simply a course taken over a couple of weeks.

I think this thread has brought out the reason for such a high death rate, injury rate and equipment smash up in this form of recreation.

 

There probably are people like Volksy who think a couple of weeks course makes a good enough instructor, and we've seen many accidents which point straight back at those instructors.

 

For example, how can someone possibly charge into the wrong circuit and try to use the non duty runway with the wrong wind, then screw up big time and use the excuse that he chose that runway because it was the one he used on the previous visit?

 

How can someone supposedly authorised to fly solo not know you have to put the nose down quickly to get flying speed when the engine stops?

 

Interesting that there has been no comment by board members on this thread, no alarms raised, just a series of posters nibbling, nibbling and nibbling to try to avoid the cost of formal instructor training so they can "train" for nothing with their mate.

 

And they would be in the same airspace as we are and as commercial pilots are.

 

Who would want to fly with turkeys?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I was particularly thorough. Knowing what's gone on in the past, and what I observed while I was there.

 

I got the overwhelming feeling tat I needed to check absolutely evrythjng ;$ as it turns out, luckily I did because the powers that be had a very Long hard look at ;)

 

 

[facthunter]

It's been like that for at least 50 years. Initially with GA where the instructors would be taken up by the airlines as soon as they had good hours up.Schools should pay more for better qualified instructors, but they struggle for funds . Many experienced instructors would still do it for a pittance but they are devoted like many are. Obviously some of your experiences 68, haven't been satisfactory. Many of mine weren't either not because of young instructors but because of weekend ex -service pilots keeping in currency, some of them not being without their particular idiosynchrasies (like edoing most of the flying)still affect me as I probably do too little when I instruct.