Which Cross Wind Technique

[cscotthendry]

Which cross wind technique do you use and why?

 

I did some circuits recently with a gusty crosswind, while my wife filmed it from the ground. After I looked at the video footage I came to the opinion that for me and my airplane, the crab approach is better...Here's some plusses and minuses:

 

+1 On my plane, using yaw to counter gusts works quicker than bank angle. Also, the effect of gusts on the tail tends to induce extra yaw automatically.

 

+2 When the wings are level, they present less surface area to the crosswind and gusts than when banked. This has the effect of reducing the sideways movement from gusts

 

+3 By using crab angle to weathercock into the wind, there is still the option to add some bank angle as well for more control.

 

+4 crabbing into wind and combining a bit of bank if necessary seems safer and more natural to me. If I was using the wing down method and got blasted by a gust, I'm not sure what would be the best response. More bank angle might be hazardous close to the ground and I'm not sure how I should react with the rudder.

 

-1 Using crab angle makes it critical to straighten up just before touchdown, especially on a paved runway.

 

Having said that, I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on which technique you most prefer and why.

 

 

[facthunter]

Not wishing to upset you, but a fair bit of your analysis is wrong. This should be sorted out with a good instructor, rather than on line here.

 

Remember your plane is flying in an airmass, and flies balanced in it without knowing the wind is there if it is steady. Viewed from the ground it appears different, and it is when you go from air to ground that the big correction is needed. ie kick it straight In GUSTS a reduction of wind velocity, feels the same as one initiated from the other way, as your plane has inertia. A sideslip into wind is a fairly natural way especially near the ground as it is set up for a good contact of the wheel(s) which may well be only the into wind wheel. Also don't think of one or the other when a combination ( crab and slip) is often done naturally as conditions change on late final. nev

 

 

[rgmwa]

I was taught the wing down method. I was told it was easier than`catching' the plane from the crab and stopping it from skidding sideways as you kicked it straight. Not saying one way is better than the other, just different. Certainly an area where I still have lots of room for improvement.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

As Nev said, perhaps your best source is a good instructor rather than this forum.

 

Having said that, as rgmwa says, a wing down plus crab may be good. If your last-moment rudder kick is not perfect, at least only one wheel contacts the earth, reduces the likelihood of UC damage and gives you a better chance to correct the alignment.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

As Nev said, perhaps your best source is a good instructor rather than this forum.

Actually, I wasn't seeking people's advice, just comments on their preferred method.

Maybe I worded my reasons badly ...

 

 

[Ultralights]

wing down, no need to adjust or "kick it straight" as you flare. hold wing down, all the way, even through flare and touchdown.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's not one or the other. Ideally you combine them unless there is a reason with an aeroplane not to use a particular method. Underslung jet engines and the trailing edge of extended flaps severely limit the bank on some aircraft. I can't see any reason to fly one wing down miles out from a runway. You are crabbing anytime you are flying with a crosswind component even en route. Nev

 

 

[metalman]

I was taught the wing down method, then got really clever and started to just "kick" it round as I got close, had a few moments when I didn't get it right and decided that perhaps a stabilized approach might be wiser, now I crab down to about 4-300agl then set the plane up on the centre line ,get it all settled , and then there's no surprises close to the ground, the benefits I see are , I am settled into the picture outside, I know if I have enough rudder authority to counter the drift before it gets critical, I don't risk a bad timing event( can turn bad real fast in a taildragger), as I get closer and the wind drops off I find it easy to relax the pressure on the controls rather than trying to re evaluate everything at once, that's how I do it anyway,,,,and it looks really professional to slide down final ,round out and settle onto one wheel ,I've watch countless crosswind approaches and you can tell from just after the final turn whether the guy is a pilot or a passenger, one mistake I see a lot with the kicking it around is the windward wing seems to lift a bit as hands and feet gets busy and once the wind is under it things get messy,

 

Matty

 

 

[David Isaac]

Agree Matty,

 

I tend to crab in till late final and then stabilise wing down into wind and regardless the type land with the into wind wing low and on that wheel. I find the wing down at late final more stable. Kicking straight at touch down brings with it a realm of unnecessary challenges. The wing down method works perfectly on the Citabria, Auster (with a bonus bounce), C172, 182, 180 and 185. The latter two being a hell of a lot of fun in gusting crosswinds, not necessarily pretty, but safe and down LOL.. I also use full flap in crosswinds especially in taildraggers, because it allows the slowest touch down speed. If conditions are really bad and you can always do controlled ground loop if you are slow enough.

 

One of the problems with flying all the way down final with wing down is that the aircraft is out of balance and if you are low on fuel and selected a low wing tank, things can get bloody quiet all of a sudden. Fly the last bit of final wing down, the bit where the landing is assured if the fan stops if you are low on fuel.

 

 

[metalman]

Something else I got into the habit of on a recent trip, we seemed to pick the windiest month of the year to do a tri state lap ,anyway, after an exciting excursion at Yarrawonga ( the sock was straight out and 90 deg to the strip ), I started to line up across the runways to lessen the crosswind angle, at Dubbo it was so windy I actually touched down on the grass, ran up over the strip and stopped on the grass the other side,,,,,not pretty but the chippie that came in after me nearly ground looped and dragged a wing , damaging the aileron and hinge in the process!

 

It's amazing how much you can reduce a stiff cross wind by using all the width of the runway to your benefit, and yeh David, the big Cessnas are an exciting jigger in a xwind,,,,,although the Skyfox types are so light you really got ya dancing shoes on when it gets messy!

 

There is nothing that beats the feeling of getting a taildragger down with 'panache' in a howling wind,

 

Matty

 

 

[kaz3g]

There is nothing that beats the feeling of getting a taildragger down with 'panache' in a howling wind,

Matty

Sometimes I even leave the panache behind and just focus on getting it down

 

Kaz

 

 

[metalman]

Sometimes I even leave the panache behind and just focus on getting it down Kaz

I've heard they've done studies to determined the colour of adrenaline ,,,,turns out it's brown!!!

 

 

[DrZoos]

I generally crab to 100 or so then wing down.....but i like to mix it up in slight winds. Ive flown in some tough winds lately and find wing down far safer for me and my plane . I have run out of rudder a few times trying the crab in some strong crosswinds.

 

If i had to say one id go wing down.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

One wing down most of the way is what I use in the Lightwing, with a degree of top rudder to keep the nose pointed in the right direction which is straight down the center line (hopefully !). That's with first notch of flap out to stabilise things a bit, unless its really howling (27 Kts on Sunday) in which case I'll leave them stowed.

 

Don't have a problem putting the upwind wheel on first followed by the tail wheel and then the other main.

 

The wing down/ top rudder approach is very stable in the Lightwing at least, and leaves lots of room for adjustments as required if the wind decides its going to change ...which it usually does. This method works well in most types that I have flown over the years.............Maj....

 

 

[djpacro]

Of course, every landing is a xwind landing.

 

 

[facthunter]

Whatever colour adrenalin is it works. Nothing like the pucker factor to bring out the extra effort needed when you are on the limit. ( When the proximity of the wing tip to the ground and the rudder effectiveness reaches it's limit).

 

Love your "controlled" ground loops David. DJP, I thought I was one of the few who "invents" crosswinds. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

I tend to use a mixture of both, even with wing down there is often a need at the last moment to kick straight. Sometimes they have been interesting. I landed a thruster in about 25 kts crosswind and a friend grabbed the wing tip as I stopped. then I couldn't get out as it wanted to blow away, so I managed to turn around on the beach and had a hairy take off, nearly going into the water a couple of times. A heavier plane makes life so much easier, but I find the RV4 runs short of rudder before the Corby.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Mostly you (plural) seem to be talking about technique for a high wing. Would your approach be different with a low wing like a Tecnam Sierra? Still wing down?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Don, I still use into the wind wing low, in a low winger .

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Mostly you (plural) seem to be talking about technique for a high wing. Would your approach be different with a low wing like a Tecnam Sierra? Still wing down?

Good point Don, but it doesn't really worry Jodels. That bent-up wingtip nicely clears the ground, even when I ground-looped on wet grass!

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I'd say it depends on what you're flying. The Chinese method (wun wing Lo) works with most high-wing taildraggers, and it worked on the Chippie, also. Don't try it on a V-tail Bonanza. There's no general rule as to which is best, so you need to be able to do either proficiently, if you fly more than one aircraft. On the whole, I tend to use the wing-low method on taildraggers, and crabbing/kick off with tricycle undercarriage - but the wing-low method works OK for Jabirus, too, because they need to be landed with the nose wheel well off the ground. So this is a fairly stupid thread.

 

 

[Riley]

I'd say it depends on what you're flying. The Chinese method (wun wing Lo) works with most high-wing taildraggers, and it worked on the Chippie, also. Don't try it on a V-tail Bonanza. There's no general rule as to which is best, so you need to be able to do either proficiently, if you fly more than one aircraft. On the whole, I tend to use the wing-low method on taildraggers, and crabbing/kick off with tricycle undercarriage - but the wing-low method works OK for Jabirus, too, because they need to be landed with the nose wheel well off the ground. So this is a fairly stupid thread.

Because of the variants (strip configuration, winds, aircraft type, driver experience, etc etc) your closing statement says it all. A piece of string is how long? Supremely evaluated Dafydd!

 

 

[kaz3g]

Mostly you (plural) seem to be talking about technique for a high wing. Would your approach be different with a low wing like a Tecnam Sierra? Still wing down?

In something like a Warrior I crab until I kick straight and then lower the windward wing a foot or so in order to alight on that wheel first if possible.

 

In the Auster I generally sideslip a bit from a high turn onto final so the wing low just follows on. I tend not to use full flap (down elevator effect) on a gusty day because it is extra easy to lift a wing even at low speed like that in a 3 point attitude.

 

The Auster has barn doors instead of the dainty things you find on a Warrior and most RA aircraft and third stage has them hanging vertical in the breeze.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

I actually think it is a very useful thread because it encourages us to consider what we do and compare the methods that others use in their different aircraft.

 

Hopefully, it also encourages us to get out of our respective comfort zones and try different techniques (with an instructor if unsure).

 

Kaz

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I should probably also add that carrying one wing low all the way to touchdown, works best on aircraft - like the Auster, and most ultralights - that have a relatively small wheel track relative to their wingspan; they have sufficient aileron authority to let the pilot lower the other wheel in a controlled manner. However, an aircraft like the Victa Airtourer, which has widely-spaced main wheels and a small wingspan, comes down hard on the second wheel and may oscillate from side to side a bit - so the technique is not good on that sort of aircraft. From an engineering point of view, there's an optimum wheel track for which the impact of the second wheel will be no greater than for the first wheel. If your aircraft has a smaller track than this, flying it in on one wheel will work OK. The change-over point seems to be (very roughly) a main wheel track of about 1/4 of the wingspan. The final word is: RTFM