Which Cross Wind Technique

[David Isaac]

I love it Pots ... actually if the wind was 25 knots, my flare and hold off would be a hover and zero rollout in the Auster. Using full flap Vso is 24 knots, I would be just praying for no windshear LOL.

 

Remember the guy who designed the Cub also designed the Auster (AG Taylor of Piper/Taylorcraft/Auster fame).

 

I just love this STOL stuff.

 

 

[DrZoos]

This mention of landing across the runway raises an interesting question. If you did land on a taxi way or a closed grass strip that still provides what looks like a great spot to land, would an incident report need to be filed. Like wise if you chose to land diagonally across a strip that has wide well groomed side areas , if your aircraft was undamaged and you managed to miss the runway lights, would it be ok to just say nothing and not mention it ?? The reason i ask is the amount of paper work you will have to do should always be considered when choosing to survive or not.

 

 

[James]

Hi all it would not be the first time that I landed diagonally across the runway in my skyfox, Whichever technique works on the day is the one for me, depends on the conditions at the time.

 

James

 

 

[David Isaac]

Runway consists of the whole area within the boundary markers and is there for landing purposes, the runway strip is usually the primary landing area and usually of a better surface quality, but is not the only approved area to land.

 

Landing diagonally or off or on the runway strip is a permitted normal use and would not constitute an incident. However, if you landed across the strip as I had earlier suggested in sever crosswinds with no other options available and you managed to pull up within the gable markers that would not be an incident IMHO, go outside the gable markers landing across the strip at anything more than taxi speed would probably constitute an incident, but preferable to landing on a public road IMHO.

 

 

[James]

Hi David, flying out of YGAW we have the luxury of having nice wide strips with both bitumen, and grass areas which the gliders use. It can still get quite interesting especially on final for 23 with last part being over a bridge on the Northern Expressway.

 

When doing my tailwheel conversion I used to get scored by the guys at the club house, apparently some of my approaches especially in a cross wind were quite entertaining.

 

 

[poteroo]

I love it Pots ... actually if the wind was 25 knots, my flare and hold off would be a hover and zero rollout in the Auster. Using full flap Vso is 24 knots, I would be just praying for no windshear LOL.Remember the guy who designed the Cub also designed the Auster (AG Taylor of Piper/Taylorcraft/Auster fame).

 

I just love this STOL stuff.

Yes, shear is the factor to worry about. STOL aircraft have more design features to allow for the low speed approaches, but in 'non' STOL aircraft you can operate them in a STOL manner by flying a stable approach but cutting the margins on IAS, keeping loads down, and staying in very good practise. I remember when the 1st Wren 460 arrived in Australia - it was a C182 with a forward canard wing and vortex generators and flapperons on the wing. Stalled south of 30, but it was eventually bent by someone who lost it in gusty wx. I think it ended up with one of the PNG mission flying operations - but it couldn't match the C185 there and has long been forgotten.

 

happy days,

 

 

[David Isaac]

I have to laugh James ... I think it is a privilege to provide entertainment to onlookers during crosswind landings ... you know that no one is looking when you grease it on, that is Murphy's law.

 

I remember many years ago I provided real entertainment to the crowd in a landing that I completely cocked up in the Citabria, I might also add that I scared the absolute crap out of myself. When I finally composed myself and eventually did land the bugga I immediately grabbed an instructor and said can we do this all again and see where I went wrong .... best thing I ever did.

 

Tail draggers have bitten me several times , just when you least expect it and they remind you how lively they are. I just absolutely love the challenge of flying and landing tail draggers. They nick named me 'Fred Astair' at Warnervale many years ago as I used to practice tap dancing down the runway up one one wheel and back again. I'd be a fair bit stale on that these days as I haven't flown a GA tail dragger for a while. Can't wait to get back in the Auster soon.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Yes, shear is the factor to worry about. STOL aircraft have more design features to allow for the low speed approaches, but in 'non' STOL aircraft you can operate them in a STOL manner by flying a stable approach but cutting the margins on IAS, keeping loads down, and staying in very good practise. I remember when the 1st Wren 460 arrived in Australia - it was a C182 with a forward canard wing and vortex generators and flapperons on the wing. Stalled south of 30, but it was eventually bent by someone who lost it in gusty wx. I think it ended up with one of the PNG mission flying operations - but it couldn't match the C185 there and has long been forgotten.

happy days,

Yeah I remember the Wren, quite some mods especially that canard. I wondered what happened to it.

 

 

[James]

Wouldn't fly anything else these days, spent many hour in an Auster with my mate Coops. He's the one that got me hooked on tail draggers in the first place.

 

 

[metalman]

This mention of landing across the runway raises an interesting question. If you did land on a taxi way or a closed grass strip that still provides what looks like a great spot to land, would an incident report need to be filed. Like wise if you chose to land diagonally across a strip that has wide well groomed side areas , if your aircraft was undamaged and you managed to miss the runway lights, would it be ok to just say nothing and not mention it ?? The reason i ask is the amount of paper work you will have to do should always be considered when choosing to survive or not.

I've landed across the runway plenty of times, and never given any thought to paper work , what ever is safe makes good sense,.

And dodging runway lights is a great skill to be learned , and much easier in a taildragger with the tail up!

 

 

[Oscar]

Back in the day, someone I know used to regularly land his Auster on the taxiways at Bankstown and finish his run at the tie-down point at de Havilland, where he worked. Completely routine stuff for a glider tug-pilot. Finally the controllers told him he had to use the strips, as the flying instructors were becoming annoyed that their students were getting the idea that the strips were optional.

 

 

[James]

Good one I like it.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Hats off to these kiwis having a field day in the wind...

 

 

 

[kaz3g]

Wouldn't fly anything else these days, spent many hour in an Auster with my mate Coops. He's the one that got me hooked on tail draggers in the first place.

Coops had a run in mine at the Auster flyin to Middlebrook Station a couple of years back. He also made the very nice trophy I won at Broken Hill before that.

 

Please pass on my best to Coops and Co.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Mark11]

 

Big jets have to go around sometimes

 

 

[Mark11]

CROSSWIND LANDINGS ?This is an interesting subject isn’t it ?? This question has been coming up for years and it will continue so to do as long as we have NEW pilots learning to fly and ( hopefully ) land aircraft safely. the POH for ANY aeroplane type will quote a MAX crosswind limit of X knots, . . . and it is fair to assume that this figure is going to be the sum T O T A L sidewind component, otherwise and popularly known as “crosswind”, . . .ie, not dependent upon from which angle to the particular landing runway that the wind is orientated.

 

LINEAR OR LOGARITHMIC ??

 

The next question for the landing pilot is this; is the crosswind quoted going to affect his aircraft in a

 

linear or logarithmic fashion. . . . .( ? ) OK, let’s look at it like this. . . . . acceleration of ANY kind, is measured logarithmically. . . . . so if a sidewind is quoted as two knots, it follows that a sidewind of this figure will have an effect approximating four times two knots, as it is dependent upon the laws of logarithmic physics, ( tangential velocities ) and as such, it is not a smooth, linear transition between wind velocities. Then you have to factor in the angular difference from runway centreline, and you have quite an interesting mathematical situation. { This stuff is really for Geeks and let’s not go too far into that } For instance, landing on runway 27, a twenty five knot wind at 215 degrees will produce a crosswind factor of “X” knots. NOW,. . . . what if the wind direction is 205 degrees at twenty five knots ? ? ? Rwy 27 is still the best runway, BUT what would be the logarithmic total crosswind with which your aircraft would have to handle ? and would it be capable ? even if YOU were ( ! ) And what if it was a Gusty crosswind . . . .? ? ? ? it'd be whizzing up and down the logarithmic scale a little, with a constantly large variation of effect upon lighter machines.

 

Regrettably, the aircraft designers don’t know which way the wind will be coming from on landings when they set the max crosswind limits for a particular machine. . . . so this appears to be where all the questions arise, and the poor old air traffic controller can ONLY give you the wind DIRECTION AND VELOCITY . . . . It’s the pilot who has to decide if this surface wind is acceptable for his machine type in order to effect a safe landing.

 

I have read various posts with some interest, regarding what various owners believe that the max crosswind limit is for their particular aeroplane and some of them are quite amusing, (although I must qualify that by saying that they are only repeating what their POH or aircraft designer says. . ).

 

I heard today from my friend Simon, (A local pilot ) that his Savannah machine has a max crosswind limit of thirty knots. ( ? ) blimey, I know of certain rather heavy metal types which have a limit of nearly half of that and I certainly wouldn’t want to try and land a light aircraft of ANY kind in a sidewind approaching that velocity, because, in MY experience . . . . it would fall outside both the controllability of the aircraft and probably MY ability to fly it. . . ! and I would more than likely break it and have to limp to the airport bar for my treble vodka and serious apologies to the FBO.

 

From memory, (which isn’t that good at my age ) the crosswind max limit on a C-172 is around 17 knots. . . . ( I have around 370 hours on type plus some on 182. . . but this was a long time ago .)this is a much bigger and heavier beast than a Savannah, with much bigger ailerons and a lot more inertia, so. . . . . I don’t know where the SLA salespeople get these impressive crosswind figures from. . . . . unless Cessna reduced their book numbers to preclude any possible litigation. . . . .

 

I must admit though, I really DO like all the varied ideas and opinions regarding crosswind landings, and this is why I love forums so much. . . .I used to be addicted to cocaine, but the flying forums are much cheaper, and don’t get up my nose anywhere near as much.

 

Happy Groundloops . . . ( ! )

 

Phil

Have you ever watched flying wild Alaska - they push the boundaries of cross wind landings

 

 

[James]

G'day Kaz, will pass on your regards to John and Jan. Cheers James.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Have you ever watched flying wild Alaska - they push the boundaries of cross wind landings

Yeah Mark. . . . .

 

I've tried to watch the landings in Flying Wild Alaska, but I keep getting distracted looking at Jim Tweto's Daughter Ariel. . . . . . . . .

 

 

[facthunter]

My first trip to Bankstown was solo in a Chipmunk when it was an all over field was a bit embarrassing. I used to fly out of RNAC District park Newcastle and it was very small so we used to waste no runway, so I come in near the Club house and land the chippie just over the perimeter fence, and had to taxi forward to be actually on the aerodrome itself. After I parked the thing an engineer came over and said, "Pretty easy to work out where you came from".

 

On a previous occasion I had observed an Auster from Bankstown try to land at Newcastle. The plane made 21 attempts and actually got the wheels on the ground three times, and then gave up and went back to Sydney. I guess you get used to having the extra runway available. Newcastle was operating under an extension of a permit. They had influence in DCA.. I saw 2 aircraft hit TV aerials on approach on separate occasions and one C182 do a go around from a bounced landing and fly steeply banked through two TV aerials climbing away. Hairy days. The area is a footy complex now. Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

Runway consists of the whole area within the boundary markers and is there for landing purposes, the runway strip is usually the primary landing area and usually of a better surface quality, but is not the only approved area to land.Landing diagonally or off or on the runway strip is a permitted normal use and would not constitute an incident. However, if you landed across the strip as I had earlier suggested in sever crosswinds with no other options available and you managed to pull up within the gable markers that would not be an incident IMHO, go outside the gable markers landing across the strip at anything more than taxi speed would probably constitute an incident, but preferable to landing on a public road IMHO.

All that nice grass outside the gables probably meets the definition of an ALA...often far more sensible to use in a strong cross-wind than that unforgiving bitumen.

 

Unfortunately my desire to use the grass in preference has been frustrated a few times by tower persons...

 

Kaz