Learning tool or a game

[kevinblack]

Iris simulation has done the J160, that you can buy here for $28.

They have also just released a J170 for $28 which you can find here.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Jabba jenny]

Thanks Kevin,

 

Have you used the sim yourself? Do you think it's close to flying?

 

I'm quite low hours in my flying, and find when coming in close to landing, maybe 30 to 50 ft, I seem to drift off centreline, always to the left, and land pointing slightly left. Then I dont like jumping hard on the rudder when I'm still moving fast. Do you think a sim would help lining up my landings?

 

Since you fly a Jab yourself, could I ask you for any other pointers?

 

Cheers, Jenny

 

 

[kevinblack]

Jenny,

 

I'm quite low hours in my flying, and find when coming in close to landing, maybe 30 to 50 ft, I seem to drift off centreline, always to the left, and land pointing slightly left. Then I dont like jumping hard on the rudder when I'm still moving fast. Do you think a sim would help lining up my landings?Since you fly a Jab yourself, could I ask you for any other pointers?

Cheers, Jenny

Firstly I am converting from GA (PA28-151/C152/C172) and have about 5+ hours in the Jabiru so I'm not the best guy for pointers there. It might be worth posting a new thread, there are others that post on the various forums that would be far better at answering your Jabiru specific questions.

 

As I noted in one of my other posts, my landings at the moment are like a rabid dog with epilepsy. They are getting better, I'm using the rudder much more and the ailerons much less when landing.

 

Having said that, I have similar problems as you - left pointing, rounding out too high etc. I was with an instructor last week who said the left pointing is a Jabiru trait. Your feet, ie. precisely where you are sitting isn't exactly perfectly straight, it is off center in a Jabiru so the tendency is to set yourself up with the aircraft pointing slightly left. Sounded reasonable to me, but you may wish to confirm that rather than accepting it at face value.

 

With these lower inertia you have got to be on the rudder pedals all the time. And my usual instructor (many many hours in Jabirus (120/160/170/230)) teaches basically on (short) final keep it straight with the rudder and use the elevator to slow it down (or speed it up). On final most of the work is with your feet.

 

I've used FSX for quite a while. Unless you have a very sophisticated setup (including rudder pedals etc etc) it's not going to help much with landing. Where it will help is with procedures, so just starting the aircraft, doing the preflight in the cockpit, runup, downwind checks, shutdown etc etc. The iris simulations are quite good and the presentation of the panel is pretty good depending on what's in your aircraft. The basic instruments and switches are all correct. For about $30 for FSX and $28 for a J170 or J160 (if that's what you are flying) I'd say it's worth it. It's not going to teach you to fly though. You may also wish to look at XPlane, there is a free XPlane J160 aircraft and XPlane costs about $60 so, in the wash, it's about the same. You can get a demo version and try it out with the default aircraft.

 

http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/for-pilots/

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Jabba jenny]

Hi Kevin,

 

Thanks very much for that. My instructor never mentioned that the Jabbas have that tendancy. Whether thats it or not, I'm obviously not correcting enough. If the weather's ok next week I intend practicing on my own a few different things and work out just what I'm doing. Ha ha , it's certainly a steep learning curve. Keeps the mind very active!!

 

I'll also look at getting a J160 sim. I think it sounds like fun anyway.

 

Good luck with your training.

 

Cheers, Jenny

 

 

[DrZoos]

Best to learn how to land using rudder and also holding centerline with aileron (wing down), as often in a reasonable crosswind you will run out of enough rudder in many of these aircraft and at winds less than the maximum cross wind in the POH.

 

Eg my aircraft has max crosswind of 16 but runs out of rudder at around 12 and rudder is at company recomended settings. Its quiet easy to land even with 16 knots but its definitely a mandatory wing down landing from about 12 knots upwards to be able to hold the centre line...(note these vary with approach speed and landing configuration-eg less flap, higher landing speed, more rudder authority. Many POH recommend minimal flap in high crosswinds )

 

for this reason my favoured technique is straighten the nose either before or after round out and then hold the centerline with use of aileron. I love landing in challenging conditions and this works a treat compared to the old kick it straight.

 

 

[Jabba jenny]

Sounds like you love a challenge!

 

For me, practice, practice and more practice!

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Try the Noel Kruse dot technique. There is a visual illusion with all planes when you sit in the left seat; Jabs might or might not be worse because of dash and engine/cowling features. Point the aircraft at something in the distance, and on the horizon. Put a dot with a whiteboard marker on the windscreen where that thing is. When landing, make sure the dot is down the end of the runway.

 

I like wing down, but you should learn all cross wind techniques and decide what works for you. Also, I prefer to go wing down from the start of the turn final, rather than around the time of roundout - then you can have a properly stabilised approach down final.

 

 

[DrZoos]

I like wing down, but you should learn all cross wind techniques and decide what works for you. Also, I prefer to go wing down from the start of the turn final, rather than around the time of roundout - then you can have a properly stabilised approach down final.

Yeh i like to set up early, not necesarily from final, but at least get a feel for the change in drag before hitting the round out...

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm not supportive of this kind of advice without a lot more explanation dealing with the matter, which won't be done appropriately on a forum like this. Nev

 

 

[Jabba jenny]

Actually my POH recommends using the wing down method for crosswinds. I went with an instructor 2 weeks ago in a Technam just to do xwind. He showed me both techniques, but prefers crabbing then over the fence, to use rudder and wing down. Makes you feel so safe with an instructor, but haven't had a chance to do any practice in my own LSA. Even though I know the principle, doing it by yourself, when it really matters, is still daunting. Nothing increases confidence more than practicing the procedures without the pressure of bad weather. And knowing you can do it is half the battle!

 

With me always landing and veering to the left, I think I might try the Noel Kruse dot technique as well. Only really a few things I could be doing. Perception wrong, too heavy footed on the rudder, inadvertantly rolling to left with aileron.

 

So thanks to everyone for the advice and ideas, I will try them out and get back to you.

 

Now I'm really getting excited , looking forward to the next week

 

 

[DrZoos]

I'm not supportive of this kind of advice without a lot more explanation dealing with the matter, which won't be done appropriately on a forum like this. Nev

Probably a very legitimate point and one to be stronlgy noted by anyone reading this thread...this IS NOT ADVICE

its discussion....you want to try something new- discuss with your instructor

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Definitely not advice. The only advice I can give is to read Noel Kruse's book series (Fly Better) as a way of broadening your aviation thinking.

 

On the other hand, I don't think that you need to discuss absolutely everything with an instructor - I tried the dot technique after I had gotten my pilot cert, but before I did my nav training, and then I encountered a plane with the dot in it (and an instructor who had read those books). If you don't have the knowledge and experience to try this technique safely after you've done your RPC flight test, then I think there's potentially something remiss with your training.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Learning in a tandem plane (an original j3 cub just in case I haven't mentioned it before:whistling:!) i didn't get exposed to the challenges of lining up the nose in a side by side plane until doing my cross country endo in a SportsStar.

 

The dot on the windscreen certainly helps get your mind around the fact that the spinner is NOT what you need to line the runway up with:thumb up:. Also in the little ll training that I have done putting the dot at horizon level in straight and level flight helped me keep my steeper turns well balanced, it seems I was getting distracted by the ground and forgetting the spinner wasn't my 'aim' point:yes:.

 

So I like the dot idea, just be careful what you mark it with as some markers can be harmful to our plasticky screens.

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Tiniest of squares of masking tape. Easy to remove.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

I have 4 round dots ,works for me and i got them from a dollar shop no 3 is my aim point, bottom dot end of runway

 

cheers gareth

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I have 4 round dots ,works for me and i got them from a dollar shop no 3 is my aim point, bottom dot end of runway[ATTACH=full]38818[/ATTACH]cheers gareth

UFOs are real!

 

 

[Geoff13]

I have a sight picture in my mind. To me it just seems to be about the attitude of the aircraft leaving me with the sight picture that I want.

 

Each aircraft is different but after 20 minutes, a couple of stalls and a few steep turns I seem to be able to adjust the picture to suit each aircraft.

 

Except the drifter, that is all about where the wind is hitting my face.

 

 

[boleropilot]

old thread I've just come across - better late than never:

 

hey Jabba Jenny, what did you end up doing about a flight simulator? I've written numerous articles for Oz GA magazines on the subject, so I may be able to help with any problems you may have in setting up a flightsim system.

 

one of the big problems with using a flightsim system for 'helping' with real life flying is the accuracy of the flight dynamics of the aircraft - my Drifter (0455) was used for Ant's Airplanes Drifter for FSX and myself and other Drifter drivers helped out with the development of the software by comparing the flightsim version with what happens in real life. That was a big bonus for Anthony, and he was able to spend time on setting up the Drifter so that it actually does things like side-slipping - a lot of FSX aircraft don't do that, even some payware aircraft.

 

looking forward to hearing from you

 

BP

 

 

[rankamateur]

I have an Ant's drifter CD that I will send her if she wants to do driftering, I never used it because the drifter I was planning to train in was 200 hours expired on the engine when time came to have it's inspection. Small oversight that.

 

 

[Jabba jenny]

Hi Guys,

 

Well, lets see. I sort of got a sim. Was given an old one that had the rudder and column set up with old bits if chipboard attaching the various parts. Was also given quite old microsoft flight sim discs. So far, great hey! But the controls were so bent out of shape, and wiring coming apart, that the rudders wouldn't work at all and many imputs on the yoke were undetected on the sim. I'm not complaining as it was given to me, he couldnt remember when last used, and had had many, many things stored on top of it over the years.

 

Since then, I've visited a guy who has the best sim set up ever. I didnt know they could do half of what his does. Cost him many thousands to set up, but has also saved him plenty on flying lessons, not to mention improving procedures and confidence.

 

Ive also found out that Wangaratta has a sim for hire, but I haven't checked it out yet.

 

So, although I'd love to get a sim l'm very conscious that to get one with decent controls and visuals may cost more than I'm willing to spend right now. Think I may check out Wangaratta and see how that goes.

 

 

[Garfly]

You can go to a lot of trouble and expense building a realistic sim hardware set up - and they can be fantastic. But I've found that I can get heaps of aeronautical education - and fun - out of X-Plane using nothing more than the keyboard and trackpad. I have pedals and a yoke and use them sometimes but mostly, just don't bother.

 

To me, one of the greatest benefits is doing Navs in the sim. You can practise using paper maps and E6B/whiz-wheel (the terrain in X-Plane is amazingly accurate and recognisable) applying the winds aloft you dial-in or going with random/actual weather. Clouds and other phenomena are getting astonishingly realistic in recent versions (but need pretty fast processors to exploit.) Equally, you can practise using the full functionality of OzRunways (or AVPlan). If your iPad and computer are on the same wifi network you can select OzRunway's Simulator mode and your imaginary flight appears exactly as it would on a real flight. If you use random or real time weather, I think it actually helps develop good aeronautical decision making. You don't necessarily have to hand fly the whole trip. Most available aircraft have autopilots which allows you to do other things while the flight continues as you configure it. But, anyway, it's for scenarios like this that sitting up at a proper sim-station is not that much of an advantage. You may as well do it comfortably on the sofa.

 

On the other hand, one of the least useful things to practise in minimalist set ups is circuit work. To me it's just too hard to get the views working properly so that you can keep track of the runway. It is possible to 'look-around' - but not easy - so I usually go for straight-in approaches in X-Plane. But if you want to practise circuits strictly by the numbers then it could probably be good in developing flying discipline.

 

And it's very possible to practice IFR work if you want to. Of course, you don't get the conflicting bodily inputs of the real world but, even so, given some rough weather you discover that it's really not easy (even without somatic miscues) to keep the scan going and stay right side up.

 

All that's not to say that I reckon simple simulated flying is good to develop actual aircraft handling skills - for example, as an aid to type conversion (by downloading and practising in your 'real world' aircraft). Unless it's a million dollar professional set up I don't think you can rely on basic sims to work for you at that level. But for developing general aeronautical thinking, yes; there are so many ways they can help in training one's flying mind.

 

The underlying flight modelling of X-Plane is said to be super accurate and it is used in some approved simulators.

 

Plus, quite a few real world instructors have developed learning tools using the application:

 

 

X-PPL - Learn to Fly - X-Plane.Org Forum

 

X-IFR - IFR Flight School - X-Plane.Org Forum

 

And again, I wouldn't be put off if you don't have a fancy set up. A lot of useful practice can be done letting your fingers do

 

the pushin' and the pullin'.

 

And, besides, if you're an airplane tragic, the pictures are just so pretty!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mnewbery]

Simulator envy is a terrible thing.

 

 

 

I use a Logitec Extreme 3D pro joystick and a laptop. That's it. I have no permanent desk space at all.

 

 

 

If the simulator saves you one go-around at $99/hr that's about $10. If it saves you a couple of hours extra in the pattern (think PSL, PFL, flap-less landing, 180 degree glide approach, go around, engine failure at take off and most specifically memory item checklists) then it will pay for itself quickly, I imagine.

 

 

 

If (and it's a big IF) it saves your life by allowing you good judgement about acceptable approaches and departures due to terrain and weather considerations, priceless.

 

 

 

If it teaches you not to look out the window so much and skip the pre-flight checks, not so good.

 

 

 

As a minor aside, I have written elsewhere in this thread (e.g. Post #20) about my comparisons between my crappy freeware simulator and an actual flight. I'm going through all of that again this month after a long time away from actual flying. Queue another invoice for charts and stuff.

 

 

[Garfly]

Did someone say envy?

 

 

Then again, who can dedicate a whole room to toy planes.

 

And in any case, that 'engine-sound' loop on his fancy system is no less annoyingly short as on my laptop.

 

But who cares, we can always listen to music instead. (Real pilots do nowadays, anyway. ;-)

 

But you're right M., a multi-function joystick is a good compromise between big bells-and-whistles jobs and using the trackpad/keyboard, alone. And, I guess, if the joystick has yaw input so much the better - although the required muscle memory might be so different to pedals that it may not be all that useful for training. (Whereas moving fingers in place of hands/arms seems pretty close.)

 

And, of course, we have lots of aircraft now - large and small - where fly-by-wire sticks are the reality.

 

 

[Jabba jenny]

Think envy is about the right word for it. The set up I saw was like the one in your photo above Garfly. Love the pics, too.

 

Just had a look at the link you sent on x-plane training, what an excellent tool. Maybe everyone should look at this tutorial, wether or not they have the sim.

 

Rankamatuer, thanks for the Drifter offer, but I'll pass on that.

 

Boleropilot, I'm really glad you posted on here, you've made me start thinking about it again.

 

And thanks also to Garfly and Mnewbery for great ideas on best ways to benefit from using a sim. Maybe it won't be as complicated or expensive as i was starting to think.

 

After all, its only money (ha, ha). Anyway, there's nothing on telly to watch nowadays, so may as well practice something I enjoy!!!

 

 

[boleropilot]

G'day Jenny - how's your flightsimming going?

 

BP