just think about this

[Bandit12]

So........what about this maintenance issue some are carrying on about, where is does it rate?No-one seems to be answering that question.

I suspect that may be because there is insufficient data to actually analyse what are systematic correlates with accidents. You can look at one accident in isolation and perhaps attribute it to one cause, but finding a bigger problem across a population is many times more complicated, and often undertaken by people who look at generalisations without decent facts behind them.

 

Generalisation: older pilots are more likely to have accidents

 

Fact (or perhaps reasonable supposition): more older pilots are flying than younger pilots, which leads to a higher numbers of accidents involving older pilots

 

Generalisation: you can't each an old dog new tricks

 

Fact (anecdotal evidence from forum posts): many pilots seem to be taking their first lessons while already old dogs, and therefore must be able to learn

 

Generalisation: self-maintenance is a significant risk factor in aviation accidents

 

Fact: .........**insert sounds of wind and tumbleweeds blowing past**

 

 

[M61A1]

I suspect that may be because there is insufficient data to actually analyse what are systematic correlates with accidents. You can look at one accident in isolation and perhaps attribute it to one cause, but finding a bigger problem across a population is many times more complicated, and often undertaken by people who look at generalisations without decent facts behind them.

 

Generalisation: self-maintenance is a significant risk factor in aviation accidents

 

Fact: .........**insert sounds of wind and tumbleweeds blowing past**

I really would have thought self maintenance was ideal......the "your ar*e in the seat" thing.

 

Every AMO I've worked in has a sign above the flightline desk "are you willing to fly in the aircraft you maintain?"

 

 

[facthunter]

There's always been people over 60 taking their first flying lessons during my lifetime. 60 was a lot older 50 years ago than it is now. We are living longer. Older people vary a lot in their capabilities. I met an 85 year old this year who plays tennis better than a lot of 40 or younger persons. I've seen pilots have severe heart attacks in their 20's and not fly again, but still make old bones, and blokes (pilots) who ran everyday and kept fit and thin, die at 58 with no warning of trouble. Another at around 40 just done a full airline medical and two weeks later doesn't reach the carpark after a flight. There are plenty of exceptions to all things. A thorough medical assessment doesn't GUARANTEE much at all. If the authority makes you do it, it appears as if they are on the ball. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

A thorough medical assessment doesn't GUARANTEE much at all. If the authority makes you do it, it appears as if they are on the ball. Nev

I would have to agree that it's no guarantee, but it should pick up stuff that's obviously wrong.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The problem is you are dealing with a lot of old guys, that old saying you can't teach an old dog new trick rings true. Regardless of what you say, they won't listen.

Ageism is alive and well, it seems.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Bandit12]

The irony of ageism - with a bit of luck even the most ageist person will live to be on the receiving end.

 

 

[DrZoos]

My old man is 68. He began flying this year . He went solo yesterday. Who says ya cant teach an old dog new tricks. Admitedly he took well over 20 hours to go solo, but i think he is living proof ya never too old to learn.

 

Back to the original topic. If human factors is so important why is it that existing pilots dont have to cover it in some form, if they didnt in training. World wide its well recognised that when you spot a deficincy in safety you implement it in training AND you implement a training module for current operators as well.

 

Its the same in other areas of aviation. If we know of a fault on an aircraft they dont just change it on all new aircraft. They issue an SB or AD and its fixed on all existing aircraft... It needs to be the same with pilots / maintainers. When we do see a safety deficiency in pilots or maintainers we need to train everyone, not just the new kids on the block.

 

In saying im not too old to fly one probably should also acknowledge your not to old or experienced to need ocasional extra training to scrub up on what was deficient in your original training.

 

Clearly we need to be cautious of the paper brigade, but once every few years some short course and exam would be fine by me to bring me up to speed. But it would p me off if it was not crucial stuff.

 

 

[M61A1]

My old man is 68. He began flying this year . He went solo yesterday. Who says ya cant teach an old dog new tricks. Admitedly he took well over 20 hours to go solo, but i think he is living proof ya never too old to learn.Back to the original topic. If human factors is so important why is it that existing pilots dont have to cover it in some form, if they didnt in training. World wide its well recognised that when you spot a deficincy in safety you implement it in training AND you implement a training module for current operators as well.

 

Its the same in other areas of aviation. If we know of a fault on an aircraft they dont just change it on all new aircraft. They issue an SB or AD and its fixed on all existing aircraft... It needs to be the same with pilots / maintainers. When we do see a safety deficiency in pilots or maintainers we need to train everyone, not just the new kids on the block.

 

In saying im not too old to fly one probably should also acknowledge your not to old or experienced to need ocasional extra training to scrub up on what was deficient in your original training.

 

Clearly we need to be cautious of the paper brigade, but once every few years some short course and exam would be fine by me to bring me up to speed. But it would p me off if it was not crucial stuff.

They did make everyone, even those who had pilot certs, cover human factors. Don't you worry about that.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Thats great. Strangely i was told the complete opposite last week... Better cross reference my source next time...

 

 

[frank marriott]

HF for existing : - only for RAA certificates - No need for my (current) CPL.

 

The only useful HF is a HF radio - you can't teach common sense.

 

 

[M61A1]

HF for existing : - only for RAA certificates - No need for my (current) CPL.The only useful HF is a HF radio - you can't teach common sense.

Apologies......I forget we have a lot of GA here. I was meaning in regard to RAAus, I wouldn't know what GA requirements are.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The irony of ageism - with a bit of luck even the most ageist person will live to be on the receiving end.

It's the circle of life

 

 

[M61A1]

It's the circle of life

So, how long before you start complaining about "young people these days?"

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I live next to a school, plenty of practice

 

 

[MarcK]

I think one of the things we should look into is managing risk.

 

I am In my 30,s and from what I have seen I am in the younger end of the Rec Aviation group. I also class myself as quite risk adverse. At this stage of my life I have to be with a young family and all the things that go with it. I am aware of the risks of flying but having being bitten by the bug I accept the risk so when I took up flying I parked my bike in the garage too limit my exposure to risk. Even during the process of making the decision to fly I spent a lot of time researching what aircraft I wanted to learn in. In that process I decided I wanted a slow rotax powered solid aircraft this decision was made with my limited knowledge on what once again would limit my exposure to risk. Once I have my Cert and I have more experience to base my decisions on if I don't feel I am up to the task or the inherent risks are to high I will give flying away until my family is grown up and if the worse happens they can take care of themselves.

 

Now I think if people where to adopt a similar philosophy during flight things could improve. Accidents will still happen that is the truth of it. But saying that accidents happen and that's that is far from good enough in any undertaking. In a sport where making a mistake or ignoring risks in flight or in maintenance can be fatal it is much more important for us a a group to be educated on what risk is manageable and what is not. Now for me this is quite a while off I still have to learn how to fly the aircraft but for those that are more experienced a little time reflecting on their habits in the air and how they react in situations that present the chance to enter high risk situations.

 

It's not an age thing at all it is fact that older people take longer to learn things but the old dogs thing is just an excuse. And when I think I can get away with it I will use it to. But you do need to take into account limitations of man and machine when making decisions. For me it is experience and one of risk factors I will face for some time to come is not being able to see what is going to kill me all I can hope is my training will be enough to get me out of trouble when it happens.

 

And lastly taking risks is fun and exciting i think it's one of the things that has made us so successful as a species is that we enjoy taking risks. We will continue to do so and have a lot of fun along the way but you have to pick you battles.

 

End of my dribble for the night.

 

Marc

 

 

[spacesailor]

Well! I'm over 70 and took my first para-tandam flight, Loved every minute of it.

 

But had to do it in Turkey , less bureaucracy and lots of people taking lessons

 

spacesailor

 

 

[poteroo]

Once upon a time.............before the acronym epidemic struck ............... pilots simply learned airmanship ! Now airmanship covered rather simple aeronautical truths, all of them learned from the past mistakes of others. Blended with a quantity of common sense - and we had airmanship. Our industry has been obliged to rename, rebadge, and generally 'PC' good old airmanship to satisfy both our regulators and a demanding society. My generation had airmanship included in every facet of our training - it was implicit that you became an 'airman' in parallel with becoming a pilot. Then, as the hours accumulate, so too does the experience flesh out the principles of airmanship, to create a thinking and prudent pilot.

 

I'm not saying to young pilots that they should rubbish all the HF,TEM,DAMP,SMS subjects - they must be passed. But you must learn from others' real life aviation experience because you won't have time to learn it all yourself in recreational flying.

 

happy days,

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Back on topic...one of the causes of difference must be that it is more difficult to land RA aircraft than GA, under normal or emergency conditions. After 40 years of flying (I must be one of the old fogeys) I am still surprised how easy it is to land a Piper or Cessna product (they land themselves!) when compared with being blown about on final in RA types. A downdraft over a line of trees means little to heavier aircraft, but requires an instant response to attitude and power in a light one. Hence a higher level of skill or experience. Cross wind management is similar. This is counter-intuitive and I have had RA types disagree strongly with me, so I don't know why their experience would be different from mine. I have never pushed an RA aircraft into a banked stall (we are not allowed to and the plane might break) so I don't know how close to the limit I might get trying to turn tightly into an emergency landing. Whereas I have done it in an aerobatic type and have some feel for how far I can push it. A GA pilot converting to RA has to undergo some hours of training for good reason. It is different, and more challenging of airmanship even if less demanding of procedures.

 

 

[frank marriott]

" A GA pilot converting to RA has to undergo some hours of training for good reason"

 

pm,

 

This only applies to LP and from what I read the LP/HP classes are going. I guess, if this is correct, the onus will be placed on the CFI issuing the certificate to ensure the LP aspects are covered eg lack of inertia.

 

 

[MarcK]

My old man has said the exact same thing about flying the older aircraft he has a few hours in pa28 and said getting behind the controls of RA aircraft is much different. He put it down to the older Pa28 and c172 birds having so much experience they don't really need a pilot anymore.

 

Marc

 

 

[facthunter]

Different or more difficult? Low inertia and lightly wing loaded planes do respond to wind gusts eddy's more than say a 747, but a persistent down draft affects them both A lot of planes have a different control feel also and that sort of thing can put you off IF YOU LET IT. Whatever the plane, you must still make it go where you want it to. You can set a larger plane up to just about flare itself in calm conditions if the speed and trim are right, but that is not the way to fly it. In limiting conditions for the type, they have to be flown very precisely. (That is why they are called limiting).

 

Stalling while banked won't load the plane unless you are pulling a lot of "G" or muck up the recovery (which is almost instant if done properly) and I do suggest you do practice it with an instructor because that is the most likely situation you will come to grief in, if what happens to others is any indication. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Pottie think back to the good old days and what's really different to now.

 

you where in your twenties!

 

no mortgage

 

no kids

 

new girl friend every 6-9 months

 

every job was better paying and more interesting than the one you left

 

you are at your physical peak, your reflexes where at their best, muscle strength was increasing as was endurance.

 

your cognitive skills weren't 100% but they where pretty close and getting better.

 

psychologically, not as many bad life experiences to undermine you in risky situations

 

and no dependants so no risk of leaving a grieving widow and family behind if you kill yourself.

 

less regulations and training are a small part of that equation

 

 

[facthunter]

Wisdom is invariably associated with age and experience but it doesn't happen in all cases. Nev

 

 

[pmccarthy]

fM I think around here the schools/ clubs require 5 hours minimum RA flying before a certificate is issued HP or LP to a GA pilot. I thought it was an RA requirement.

 

 

[poteroo]

Pottie think back to the good old days and what's really different to now.you where in your twenties!

no mortgage

 

no kids

 

new girl friend every 6-9 months

 

every job was better paying and more interesting than the one you left

 

you are at your physical peak, your reflexes where at their best, muscle strength was increasing as was endurance.

 

your cognitive skills weren't 100% but they where pretty close and getting better.

 

psychologically, not as many bad life experiences to undermine you in risky situations

 

and no dependants so no risk of leaving a grieving widow and family behind if you kill yourself.

 

less regulations and training are a small part of that equation

Let's look at your points FT:

 

1 - real quids - not Pacific Pesos!

 

2- none that I know of...but wild oats are difficult to control!

 

3- every month, but they often overlapped!

 

4- in 1965, there were 500 CPL's out of work in Australia. Only the determined scored a job. I had one only 2 days after passing my CPL.

 

5- physically...yes, twas so

 

6- my skills were very average, but I learned from others over the next 40 years. You should become a 'better' pilot with age because your judgement improves considerably more than your physical skills.

 

7- to the contrary, my many adverse life experiences have shaped my aviation experience and skills to where I'm a far more responsible pilot now than in my twenties.

 

8- my parents would have disagreed, but by my 1st year of commercial flying in PNG I had a wife + child. I'm not sure that your having dependants makes much difference to your reactive flying...perhaps to planning, yes. Have never, ever, thought about being killed or injured while flying - my decisions have been based on operational factors, not emotive claptrap.

 

FT - I'm a long way from slippers and rocking chair at 73. At your tender age, keep an open mind and learn from others' experience.

 

cheers,

 

9- 'less' regulation & training? I think not. We had 3 monthly line checks and every type endorsement was intensive.