just think about this

[facthunter]

Far more believable when based on fact and experience, than on some hypothesis or theory. By selecting suitable points one may derive what appears to be a substantial case. If most of the points prove contestable (don't stand scrutiny) There is no real case. You are right about the situation in 65. No one hired for years (about 69). I did Bn-Moresby Lae 20 Nov 65. Where were you then? Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

fM I think around here the schools/ clubs require 5 hours minimum RA flying before a certificate is issued HP or LP to a GA pilot. I thought it was an RA requirement.

pm - not an RAA requirement :-

 

Ops Manual

 

Sect 2.07

 

2 © LP requires a min of 5 hrs

 

2 (d) HP such training in a high performance Rec Aircraft as is deemed necessary by a CFI

 

The decision is still left to the particular CFI but no 5 hr min. It can be as little as a check flight or call it a RAA BFR.

 

Obviously a CFI may elect to require 5 hours but all I was saying it is not an Ops manual requirement - I certainly was not required to do 5 hrs.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Pottie think back to the good old days and what's really different to now.you where in your twenties!

no mortgage

 

no kids

 

new girl friend every 6-9 months

 

every job was better paying and more interesting than the one you left

 

you are at your physical peak, your reflexes where at their best, muscle strength was increasing as was endurance.

 

your cognitive skills weren't 100% but they where pretty close and getting better.

 

psychologically, not as many bad life experiences to undermine you in risky situations

 

and no dependants so no risk of leaving a grieving widow and family behind if you kill yourself.

 

less regulations and training are a small part of that equation

This topic is a big waste of time. FT do you have any kids? Are you saying losing a child in their twenties wouldn't make you grieve? How thoughtless of you to make a comment like that.

 

I'm only young (still in my twenties) but was taught from a young age to respect my elders, I personally don't mind older people flying as if I make it to that age I would still like to be able to fly. But I guess now you will say that only people your age should fly? SDQDI is probably too young and not mentally developed enough to be flying:loopy:(a few people would probably agree with you on that one:yes:) but at the end (actually at the start of the day before we even go) of the day we need to take responsibility for our own flying.

 

Also what causes more accidents ? Pilot error or pilot age related incapacitation? (is that the right word?) in my opinion it would be pilot error which is under no circumstances limited to a certain age bracket.

 

Also statistically in cars the young males outdo all other groups for popping up dead seems we get a bit too cocky (yeah I get that way too:happy:)

 

Ok I've really blabbed on too much now

 

 

[biggles]

Also what causes more accidents ? Pilot error or pilot age related incapacitation?

 

 

 

 

 

Human factors !

 

 

[turboplanner]

Ageism is alive and well, it seems.Kaz

FT is wrong, it's women who are to blame!

 

 

[greybeard]

Something about this thread makes me think 'stubborn', 'set in their way', 'always right', 'driving at 80kph on the highway', 'never had an accident' ...

 

Then I get another set of words/phrases coming to me, 'invincible', 'bullet proof', 'source of all knowledge' ...

 

and to end it off I get 'mature' and 'less mature'.

 

I suppose someone could find some statistics to associate the above with differing ages and someone else could probably associate them in a different way.

 

Like it or not along with the freedoms 'demanded', oops, I mean associated, with less regulation comes greater self critique and a greater reliance on self education. I think that the aging of the RAA fleet, the increase in performance and the increase in skills to safely manage those risks is starting to bite.

 

Being older and wiser in some areas doesn't mean I'm guaranteed a job at Cape Canaveral.

 

There's a few reasons why the average age of recreational pilots is tending towards the older person and subsequently why they are represented in greater numbers in incidents. I'm not convinced that it's just due to an over representation of older pilots. I think that attitude ( or HF whatever the latest TLA is ) has a noticeable impact as well.

 

For the record, I'm 53 and have been granted a license to learn to fly since '96 and am progressing pretty well on the stubborn lessons ;)

 

 

[M61A1]

Also statistically in cars the young males outdo all other groups for popping up dead seems we get a bit too cocky (yeah I get that way too:happy:)

Ok I've really blabbed on too much now

I read about a study in the paper a month or so ago. The outcome was that per kilometre driven, the elderly (can't recall the bracket) were several times more likely to have an accident. It made the news because it went against the traditional line of thought (ie: numbers low, but high rate for actual road time). Unfortunately from the standard of driving around here, I'd be inclined to believe it.

I do think though, that if you are interested in what you're doing, you're going to try and do it better regardless of age, and that most of our elderly drivers are just not interested, it's a major chore.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Well! I'm over 70 and took my first para-tandam flight, Loved every minute of it.But had to do it in Turkey , less bureaucracy and lots of people taking lessons

spacesailor

Was it with this guy? over ten G's loaded

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

Hi Ozzie, same place different time and yes they still do the loops and brake their wires, then cop a fine. The take off point I had was under the video take off (large white concrete slab) all set out nicely for the tourist, (me)

 

The aerobatics are not tourist, three weeks for solo ticket, minimal bookwork, with two or three flights every day, if you cant land at the designated area you don't get the prize.

 

No flying in Aus. for awhile and save like mad to go back and do it again Yippee !.

 

spacesailor.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I loved flying in the Italian Alps. Pretty loose as well. I had a hang glider rating and some PG hours but my jumping experience got me solo there from the start they even accepted my RAAus and APF membership cards when I flashed them. (The APF and HGFA are FAI linked) Knowing a local helps.

 

No matter were I have travelled it has never been a drama getting some sort of airtime be it flying or jumping then I come home to Australia and ......

 

 

[spacesailor]

I know, just like a police state (((((((( shush "Big brother 1984" Will be listening. I couldn't get over how everyone gets on so well even with the language barrier, all sitting under the tree's showing us dim wits what the lines are for. and don't try aerobatics,

 

is said over & over, but look up and they're looping the loop, having a ball.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Hi Ozzie, same place different time and yes they still do the loops and brake their wires, then cop a fine. The take off point I had was under the video take off (large white concrete slab) all set out nicely for the tourist, (me)The aerobatics are not tourist, three weeks for solo ticket, minimal bookwork, with two or three flights every day, if you cant land at the designated area you don't get the prize.

No flying in Aus. for awhile and save like mad to go back and do it again Yippee !.

 

spacesailor.

There are plenty of good paragliding schools here in Australia who do tandems. You might be better off saving your money and heading to Bright where three excellent schools operate. Most conduct two day introduction courses too. Laurie

 

 

[farri]

I have never pushed an RA aircraft into a banked stall (we are not allowed to and the plane might break) .

Have I been missing something? I`ve just had a good look at the RAA OPS manual and can`t find anything that says," stalls in the turn ( a banked stall ) can`t be taught, done or practiced ".

 

"We are not allowed to and the plane might break" Why would the plane break in a stall in the turn ( a banked stall )? Isn`t the stall in the turn at too low an altitude to be able to recover, the cause of some accidents.

 

In my opinion, the ability to recognise and recover from a stall in the turn is a vital part of flying the aircraft, therefore, if it`s not being taught by RAA instructors, it should be.

 

Frank.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Frank,

 

I should have explained that I don't think recovery from an incipient stall is sufficient training. You need to let the stall develop and find out what the aeroplane does. You need to get up to a safe height and then find out what happens when you are unpowered, slow and steeply banked, as you might be near the ground in an emergency. The first time you feel the effect of a stalled wing should not be at 200 feet. But we are not allowed to try this in non-aerobatic aircraft.

 

Every stall recovery I have done with a non-aerobatic nstructor has been a non-event and would not teach anyone much about what happens if you push the envelope just a little further. Things get nasty very quickly. In an emergency such as an engine out, people will be tempted to push a bit harder, stretch a glide, steepen a turn and so on. I think many of the fatalities happen that way. I'll bet that in most cases it is the first time the pilot has experienced his or her aeroplane in a stall, and unfortunately also the last time.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

To add to the above, in the entry to a stall the plane goes a bit mushy and the altimeter starts to lose a bit of height. We are taught to put the nose down and add power. In an emergency, the pilot who has never been in a fully developed stall either flat or banked will think "I can live with a bit of mushy and a bit of height loss, it's better than going through that fence" but of course he can't live with it at all.

 

 

[M61A1]

Frank,I should have explained that I don't think recovery from an incipient stall is sufficient training. You need to let the stall develop and find out what the aeroplane does. You need to get up to a safe height and then find out what happens when you are unpowered, slow and steeply banked, as you might be near the ground in an emergency. The first time you feel the effect of a stalled wing should not be at 200 feet. But we are not allowed to try this in non-aerobatic aircraft.

 

Every stall recovery I have done with a non-aerobatic nstructor has been a non-event and would not teach anyone much about what happens if you push the envelope just a little further. Things get nasty very quickly. In an emergency such as an engine out, people will be tempted to push a bit harder, stretch a glide, steepen a turn and so on. I think many of the fatalities happen that way. I'll bet that in most cases it is the first time the pilot has experienced his or her aeroplane in a stall, and unfortunately also the last time.

While I agree completely that we all should know what goes on past an incipient stall, a very valid point Dafydd raised a while ago, was that some of these newer, very light, very slippery aircraft can be overstressed and broken with the slightest mishandling of the recovery. So considerable care would need to be exercised switching from one aircraft to another.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

M6 I agree hence my comment that the plane might break in my earlier post. It is a dilemma.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

This is your classic GA accident, instead of just landing the plane and getting out of danger, dad is to busy trying to work out how to avoid driving home.

 

 

 

[farri]

Frank,I should have explained that I don't think recovery from an incipient stall is sufficient training

pmc, I fully understand what you`ve been saying! it`s your line, "I have never pushed an RA aircraft into a banked stall.We are not allowed to and the plane might break" that I thought was misleading.

 

No problem! Cheers.

 

Frank.

 

 

[farri]

I`m going back quite a few years now, but I think it might be relevent to the discussion! I took a flight with a glider instructor, up at Spring Mount on the Atherton tablelands. Three weeks later he crashed. The cause of the accident was thought to be a heart attack. He didn`t survive and fortunately! he was on his own.

 

Frank.

 

 

[kaz3g]

?.....This year I really got a better knowledge of ....how to identify Varga.

It comes in little blue pills.

 

Kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's the beauty of this site; no matter what skills you lack, someone can always help with some advice on how to find a solution

 

 

[facthunter]

OK then What's Varga? Nev

 

 

[Keenaviator]

OK then What's Varga? Nev

Probably means virga.

Laurie

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Probably means virga.Laurie

Why the similarity to that product name?

Virga is rain which never quite gets there.