Major weaknesses addressed

[Camel]

So why doesn't jabiru address major weaknesses too ! ! !

 

Only for experimental, so they are safer !

 

New Camit Aero Engines

 

 

CAMit Pty Ltd has been manufacturing aircraft engines and components for almost 20 years. This experience had not been fully utilized until a recent R&D program was initiated. This was started due to requests for modifications to engines, to improve their reliability. Once started, the interaction between various components led to a complete review of the design.

 

Now, due to popular demand, an upgraded solid lifter engine has been released by CAMit. These engines are available as new or overhauled engines and have had any major weakness addressed. Many parts have had minor modifications but are still interchangeable with the original components. This ensures flexibility in the ongoing maintenance of these engines.

 

New engines come standard with all available CAMit aftermarket kits and parts as standard. 40 amp alternators, inhibiting systems, heavy duty barrels, improved rocker arms, multi-featured oil cooler adaptors and many more are included. Only Honda coils are used. High quality lead sets are standard.

 

The emphasis is on quality. CAMit has fully audited quality systems and CASA production certificate approvals. Components are also made for military and top-end commercial use.

 

CAMit is proudly Australian, providing Australian jobs in a difficult manufacturing environment. We see quality as our competitive advantage and make good use of the natural Australian talent for innovative solutions.

 

Please contact us or email Ian at [email protected] to discuss your needs and we will be more than happy to assist you.

 

Thank You.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Be interested to see how this engine goes.

 

 

[Yenn]

Who designed these engines? They look like Jab engines and I believe Camit build the engines for Jabiru.

 

Are they a Camit design or an improved version of the jab engine?

 

 

[facthunter]

Everything interchanges with original. I guess this is only available on non certified engines. You get stuck when things are certified. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Everything interchanges with original. I guess this is only available on non certified engines. You get stuck when things are certified. Nev

He didn't say all parts are interchangable; he said many parts are. The devil is in the detail . . .

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Who designed these engines? They look like Jab engines and I believe Camit build the engines for Jabiru.Are they a Camit design or an improved version of the jab engine?

Both.

 

 

[Camel]

Everything interchanges with original. I guess this is only available on non certified engines. You get stuck when things are certified. Nev

Yes Nev, my point exactly, safety is compromised by all legal red tape, if Casa was truly responsible for safety they would be responsible for the next engine failure as in the quote it states major weaknesses so is Someone just not interested in safety at all. In the auto industry if they found a major weakness in an engine part it would be upgraded in the next model or changed immediately, certification makes it hard to upgrade anything and that's why lycoming designs are so prehistoric compared to auto engines, what mileage does the average auto engine do before an overhaul is required ? Any taxi drivers know of these engine life kilometers, my guess is half a million Kms.

 

Engine website http://camitaeroengines.myshopify.com

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Why can't Jabiru release an uncertified engine?

 

 

[Ultralights]

what mileage does the average auto engine do before an overhaul is required ? Any taxi drivers know of these engine life kilometers, my guess is half a million Kms.

In the past as a courier, my van clocked up over 500,000Km in the first 5 years.. and the other rodeo ute, had 680,000 before we removed the heads for a look, both engines, Petrol, still had the hone marks on the bores.

If the oil is clean, and the engine kept cool, then 1,000,000 is no drama for a modern engine.. 1.5Million Km is considered Low miles for some truck engines.

 

High revs, and lean of peak mixtures, and the engine will run clean, be under less stress, (true if you have seen an aircraft run on a modern dyno), and have no reason not to go to TBO.

 

what will kill an engine within minutes if not seconds, is Pre ignition. detonation isnt too bad, still not good, but light detonation will not harm an engine in the short term. heavy will. running in the red zone just rich of peak, creates the most stress on an engine. that stress being internal cylinder pressures, running lean of peak, and higher Rpm, and full throttle will see pressures around 600psi. just rich of peak will have them up around750 to 800. detonation, just a little higher, but pre ignition will get them well over 1500+ psi, and into destruction territory.

 

best to be full rich, or lean of peak. anywhere in between will increase wear through higher internal pressures.

 

i would really love to see a jabiru engine put onto a proper modern dyno with real time monitoring of internal cylinder pressures, timing, mixture, CHT and EGT's. a lot of issues can be resolved with that kind of data! after seeing a lycoming engine on a dyno with the parameters above, its easy to see just how a bad mixture, bad plug design, plug damage can cause the stresses that result in the kind of failures that show up all to often with jabiru engines.

 

i hope the modifications and changes by Camit are a result of such research, if it is, then they will have a winner of an engine on their hands!

 

also noted on the dyno run and data i saw, Lean mixtures had nothing to do with detonation. or burnt valves... flame suite on..

 

 

[fly_tornado]

High revs, and lean of peak mixtures and lead free fuel...

 

 

[Camel]

In the past as a courier, my van clocked up over 500,000Km in the first 5 years.. and the other rodeo ute, had 680,000 before we removed the heads for a look, both engines, Petrol, still had the hone marks on the bores.If the oil is clean, and the engine kept cool, then 1,000,000 is no drama for a modern engine.. 1.5Million Km is considered Low miles for some truck engines.

High revs, and lean of peak mixtures, and the engine will run clean, be under less stress, (true if you have seen an aircraft run on a modern dyno), and have no reason not to go to TBO.

 

what will kill an engine within minutes if not seconds, is Pre ignition. detonation isnt too bad, still not good, but light detonation will not harm an engine in the short term. heavy will. running in the red zone just rich of peak, creates the most stress on an engine. that stress being internal cylinder pressures, running lean of peak, and higher Rpm, and full throttl will see pressures around 600psi. just rich of peak will have them up around750 to 800. detonation, just a little higher, but pre ignition will get them well over 1500+ psi, and into destruction territory.

 

best to be full rich, or lean of peak. anywhere in between will increase wear through higher internal pressures.

 

Back to the initial post topic, how are the statistics when compared to hours flown over the same period?

100km in one hour at revs, 2000 hours equals 200000 Kms. So a decent engine should make TBO

 

 

[aj_richo]

They also have added another new Ancillary Product for the 2200 and 3300.. a Muffler seal kit.

 

http://camitaeroengines.myshopify.com/collections/ancillary-parts

 

Not sure if it will work on my installation as the exhaust pipes go in at angles i.e. gap one side larger than other, but might be worth looking into?

 

 

[facthunter]

Making comparison between auto use and aircraft is invalid.. The average car cruises on about 2o% of its maximum and doesn't run flat out for the first 5 minutes of use, or gets shock cooled like most aircooled motors are on descent. Aero engines usually don't have good aircleaners either. The aero motor has every bit of unnecessary metal removed from its structure almost till it becomes a risk to reliability.

 

A car engine in pretty ordinary condition will often keep going for years. An aircraft engine with a fault will not run long because of the higher performance regimes it uses. ie full throttle for TO and about 75% other times. Having low HP for Capacity is normal for aero engines and despite that some of the highest specific fuel consumption figures were obtained from them. This and weight / HP and reliability are what is called for but bulk was not good and reliability was not either eventually leading to most engines being turbo-prop or bypass jet. Piston engines are not used much except for light aircraft, and if one is honest, they have not improved in reliability.

 

Engines that once did good hours often now don't. This I put down to usage patterns and servicing standards. A lot of new ideas are tried out on older motors, and they probably ran better as first supplied. Many are also getting old and metal fatigue and age hardening ocurr. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

I've seen the 'improved' engines being built and investigated the changes in depth - and they're damn impressive. CAMit have looked at the problems (and believe me, they know ALL the problems, including ones you would not realise unless you are a very, very experienced engine manufacturer and have the result of inspection, testing and analysis using some seriously high-tech machinery to hand).

 

It's not my place, nor am I at all sufficiently knowledgeable to discuss the various mods. and how they interact. CAMit can - and I am sure would - tell an interested purchaser of one of their 'modified' re-builds just what and why things have been done. However, I think I can make some general observations that are valid.

 

Any engine is a conglomeration of 'systems' that have to interact. In a Jabiru engine, these include (and are not limited to!): engine case join integrity, barrel attachment security, head attachment security, rocker-gear loadings, oil supply, cooling, valve stem loading and crankshaft harmonic damping. That all of these are potential problems is no secret - all have been well documented. However, how many people have recognised that the 'through-bolts' issue is not just simply a problem with the nuts or the size of the bolts, but can start with the methodology of joining the engine cases plus the strength of the barrel base. Add over-temp flying and detonation and the engine is on the way to self-destructing. Individual owners (and some FTFs!) that are scrupulous in their usage parameter observance allow us to see examples of Jab. engines running 1000 hours or more. However, scrupulous is the operative word here: just one incident of 'abuse' outside of the limits starts the rot.

 

CAMit has looked at the problems and developed an engineering response on holistic principles (not that they'd necessarily use that term.) Its mods. are not just 'fix this particular problem', but looking at the system(s) interaction and ensuring that every element that contributes to the problem(s) is addressed as far as possible within the limitations of interchangeability with standard. That starts with a different case-joining regime, new through bolts that address case fretting and loss of torque, thicker barrel-bases to address the through-bolt leverage problem particularly in the event of detonation - a heap of inter-related subtle changes. There's no 'silver bullet' approach - because there is no 'silver bullet'. However, if I can introduce a somewhat tortured analogy here: the CAMit 'improved' engine changes crystal glass to Corning Ware.

 

Engine Certification requires an incredibly complex set of tests, and that's very, very expensive. Despite this: expect certification of the CAMit modifications in the not-unforeseeable-future. Right now, CAMit modified engines are out here accumulating service hours.

 

Jabiru sells engines that are certified and to a degree its hands are tied regarding changes that would impinge on the certification. CAMit builds engines to Jabiru's specifications - that's their role in the supplier chain. Do not confuse the role CAMit has in supplying engines to Jabiru: Jabiru does not buy 'CAMit' engine, it contracts CAMit to build engines to its specification. This is NOT a semantic issue: engines built for supply to Jabiru leave CAMit with a Jabiru engine plate attached, which has the legal responsibility placed on Jabiru. CAMit 'improved' engines leave CAMit with a CAMit engine plate ( I've had the priviledge of seeing both the #0001 2200 engine and the #0001 3300 engine completed and ready for delivery!) They are different - though externally similar - engines. They bolt up to your engine mounts with no modifications.

 

CAMit recognised that in developing its modifications, it needed to provide purchasers with as much confidence as it could provide that if they choose to go the CAMit engine route, they still have the back-up of Jabiru - in case CAMit is hit by a comet or similar. If you choose to replace your stuffed Jab. engine with a CAMit-modified one (at around the same cost as a Jab. zero-timed rebuild) you are not taking a step over the cliff. Hell, you can integrate many of the CAMit parts - such as the 40-watt alternator (with its attendant harmonic dampening of the flywheel bolt-shear characteristics) with your Jab. rebuilt engine. It's called 'legacy engineering'.

 

I've had the absolute privilege of rebuilding my 2200 at CAMit, incorporating many of the 'improved' mods and discussing the whys and wherefores with the CAMit engine gurus. I defy anybody to actually go to CAMit, watch the entire Jabiru engine manufacturing and assembly process, ask the people concerned: 'why it is done this way?' and not leave satisfied that your questions have been reliably and believably answered.

 

Jab. engines are not fundamentally bad things - in some respects they are state-of-the-art leading (hp/lb/cruise revs equation). But they are 'fragile': intolerant of use at 'out-of-limits' conditions. Rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, CAMit has developed a baby-friendly bathwater solution. It's worth more than just idle consideration.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

So will Camit address the ongoing quality control issues with the Jabiru engine?

 

 

[Oscar]

If you can identify the actual responsibility for the 'ongoing quality control issues with the Jabiru engine' - then you have a valid point. In case you failed to recognise the distinction I made in my post: that CAMit produce engines to Jabiru's specification, (that Jabiru sell), let me spell this out in large, warm, friendly letters (again): if you buy an engine / rebuild from Jabiru, it is a Jabiru engine. If you buy a CAMit rebuild/new engine, it is a CAMit engine.

 

Is that sufficiently clear? Jabiru are responsible for the issues with Jabiru engines. If the engine has a Jabiru plate, it is a Jabiru engine, NOT a CAMit engine. Jabiru orders engines from CAMit to a particular specification - theirs. That is what CAMit build to supply to Jabiru. How difficult is it to understand the difference between a product that has been built to an external specification vs a 'home-grown' product?

 

(addendum:

 

If you mean: 'does the CAMit engine address the 'ongoing quality control issues with the Jabiru engine' - then please re-read the quote from the CAMit site. A heap of issues have been addressed - not just 'QC' but basic design issues. You cannot hold CAMit responsible for QC issues that can be sheeted home to Jabiru's selection of suppliers of certain components, nor can you expect CAMit to be able to redress problems that have resulted from that. That is Jabiru's responsibility.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Thanks Oscar, sound impressive. I wonder if they will go further in the future and adopt features like EFI and cast heads or are they sold on machining everything from billet? I reckon that would really make a nice unit. Interesting to see they use solid lifters also simple, reliable and effective. I hope they do well and develop a nice export market with this.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I get your point Oscar but same fish different frypan. I hope that its successful

 

 

[Camel]

Oscar, everything you write is valid, appreciated and informative. If one could replace a Jab engine

 

with a Camit engine And keep the plane in the factory built LSA catorgory

 

I'm sure most would buy the more reliable engine. Will Jabiru allow it ?

 

Does any engine need to be certified to be in a LSA ? My belief is it just has to meet the ASTM standard.

 

If certified, will Jabiru allow it to be installed in a Jab LSA. ?

 

Jabiru have upgraded parts before, why are they not participating ?

 

An oil manufacturer has done tests on Jabiru engines and found a suitable oil not recommended by

 

Jabiru, why don't they participate ?

 

Is Camit aware of oil tests and I wonder what they recommend ? Did they recommend oil to you ?

 

I also believe what you say Oscar about overheating Jab engine which is the start of the rot. And if every mod that others

 

have produced ie water cooled heads, fuel injection, ignition systems plus Camit mods and none of Jabs mods, what kind

 

of engine would we have ? Reliable or not ?

 

My point is I think Jabiru are not participating in research and development of their own product and ignoring the demands of the customers who want their product, but want reliability. I am one of those people and I believe the J230 would be the best seller worldwide if they listened to the customers, lots have tried to tell them but it appears no one will listen. The problems are obvious to those in the know and would stick with it if they knew that the product would improve, as you say you have a Camit rebuild with mods, the legality in a factory build without jabiru approval is a problem, or is it ?

 

Thankyou again Oscar for taking the time to share.

 

 

[Oscar]

Thanks Oscar, sound impressive. I wonder if they will go further in the future and adopt features like EFI and cast heads or are they sold on machining everything from billet? I reckon that would really make a nice unit. Interesting to see they use solid lifters also simple, reliable and effective. I hope they do well and develop a nice export market with this.

They are supplying engines right now to the Israeli drone manufacturers with efi - I've seen the injector attachment fittings on the inlet manifolds on built engines before they went into the export crates. I'd have bought a set on the spot except I need to re-register my aircraft as 55...

 

I'm not a paid advocate for CAMit. But as a Jab. owner, I sincerely suggest that if you are coming up to an engine rebuild (and you're not stuffed by 24-reg): - visit the CAMit factory and see the differences for yourself. Plenty of people sit on the sidelines here and snipe - but talk is cheap and exposure to the facts is gold.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The ongoing problem for Jabiru is the majority of their engines go into E-AB planes in the US and EU. This engine will kill that market for them if its reliable. How is Jab going to protect this market? That being said Jab have a lot of new competition in the last few years from UL power and D-motor. Its going to be hard decision time soon enough.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Oscar, everything you write is valid, appreciated and informative. If one could replace a Jab enginewith a Camit engine And keep the plane in the factory built LSA catorgory

I'm sure most would buy the more reliable engine. Will Jabiru allow it ?

 

Does any engine need to be certified to be in a LSA ? My belief is it just has to meet the ASTM standard.

 

If certified, will Jabiru allow it to be installed in a Jab LSA. ?

 

Jabiru have upgraded parts before, why are they not participating ?

 

An oil manufacturer has done tests on Jabiru engines and found a suitable oil not recommended by

 

Jabiru, why don't they participate ?

 

Is Camit aware of oil tests and I wonder what they recommend ? Did they recommend oil to you ?

 

I also believe what you say Oscar about overheating Jab engine which is the start of the rot. And if every mod that others

 

have produced ie water cooled heads, fuel injection, ignition systems plus Camit mods and none of Jabs mods, what kind

 

of engine would we have ? Reliable or not ?

 

My point is I think Jabiru are not participating in research and development of their own product and ignoring the demands of the customers who want their product, but want reliability. I am one of those people and I believe the J230 would be the best seller worldwide if they listened to the customers, lots have tried to tell them but it appears no one will listen. The problems are obvious to those in the know and would stick with it if they knew that the product would improve, as you say you have a Camit rebuild with mods, the legality in a factory build without jabiru approval is a problem, or is it ?

 

Thankyou again Oscar for taking the time to share.

That's at least five very good questions. We'll just have to wait & see, won't we? - unless of course you have a -19 registered aircraft . . .

 

 

[Oscar]

Oscar, everything you write is valid, appreciated and informative. If one could replace a Jab enginewith a Camit engine And keep the plane in the factory built LSA catorgory

I'm sure most would buy the more reliable engine. Will Jabiru allow it ?

 

Does any engine need to be certified to be in a LSA ? My belief is it just has to meet the ASTM standard.

 

If certified, will Jabiru allow it to be installed in a Jab LSA. ?

 

(as I understand it- and I'm no expert): Jabiru have to be the 'responsible' agent for their LSA (24-reg) aircraft. That means, if I understand if correctly, that they have to have all the test documentation etc. to prove that every component meets the required standards. Not a cheap exercise, and understandable that they don't want to do it for every 'candidate' optional component. That said, I think- but am not expert to state- that a certificated CAMit engine to the same standard as Jabiru use for 'their' engine ought to be allowable.

 

Jabiru have upgraded parts before, why are they not participating ?

 

I don't know - ask Jabiru!

 

An oil manufacturer has done tests on Jabiru engines and found a suitable oil not recommended by

 

Jabiru, why don't they participate ?

 

Same as the first point, really- they've found an acceptable oil.

 

Is Camit aware of oil tests and I wonder what they recommend ? Did they recommend oil to you ?

 

I also believe what you say Oscar about overheating Jab engine which is the start of the rot. And if every mod that others

 

have produced ie water cooled heads, fuel injection, ignition systems plus Camit mods and none of Jabs mods, what kind

 

of engine would we have ? Reliable or not ?

 

Wow, a mega-question. There are a whole heap of issues there, including 'no negative effects' (if that is the correct phrase): i.e. the changes do not introduce negative structural/performance issues that need to be certificated/proven. The Rotec water-cooled heads seem like a great idea, but I have NO idea whether they address other problems (such as the valve-guide loadings) negatively or positively. And you can't just ignore barrel cooling because you have head-cooling sorted. Any change needs to be evaluated for its overall effects. However: if we assume the basic Jab. engine as a base-line for reliability, certainly the CAMit engine (and for that matter, othger mods such as the Rotec water-cooled heads) have a set of figures against which they can demonstrate their performance.

 

My point is I think Jabiru are not participating in research and development of their own product and ignoring the demands of the customers who want their product, but want reliability. I am one of those people and I believe the J230 would be the best seller worldwide if they listened to the customers, lots have tried to tell them but it appears no one will listen. The problems are obvious to those in the know and would stick with it if they knew that the product would improve, as you say you have a Camit rebuild with mods, the legality in a factory build without jabiru approval is a problem, or is it ?

 

I can only comment that, if I had the wherewithal, I'd be flying a J2x-series aircraft with a CAMit-modifed (full fruit!) engine in a heartbeat - much as I have a serious connection to my hand-rebuilt ST1!

 

Thankyou again Oscar for taking the time to share.

[facthunter]

The stupid thing about certified aircraft is that sensible modifications are too hard to get approved. The other problem is the expense and trouble with having something certified in the first place. WHEN it is done a standard is reached but ALL things must evolve in the light of experience of actual operation of the plane. In the big stuff the worst place to be is in a the highest hour/cycles of a new advanced model of anything. Recall the DH Comet, the Lockeed Electra, the Fairchild F-27 and there would be many others. Testing improves the breed if you learn from it. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

Wonder who owns the patents....could get interesting... If apple sued samsung for round corners .......

 

You would think with all the costs so far Jab would have this well patented.