Major weaknesses addressed

[frank marriott]

"The RAA is aware of the need to do something in the interest of safety and the goodwill of their members. "

 

A personal opinion is one thing and there are many and varied ones of them. I would suggest caution in making such a public statement on behalf of RAA as the "organisation" may be called on to justify such an opinion. Could get very untidy - expensive even.

 

 

[Camel]

"I'm not arguing the facts, merely trying to put pressure on Jabaru to improve their product"....Quote :...Camel...It's nice to have some company, I and others have been trying to do it for at least six years !....The RAA is aware of the need to do something in the interest of safety and the goodwill of their members. Problem is they need solid facts, and lots of them. This is where the membership comes in to provide those concrete facts.....Maj.....

The solid facts are that the original engine manufacturer ( not designer ) has said that there are major weaknesses and they are going to fix them, so what I would like is Jabiru to recognise this and allow the changes to be made at rebuild to factory built aircraft.

 

 

[Oscar]

"I'm not arguing the facts, merely trying to put pressure on Jabaru to improve their product"....Quote :...Camel...It's nice to have some company, I and others have been trying to do it for at least six years !....The RAA is aware of the need to do something in the interest of safety and the goodwill of their members. Problem is they need solid facts, and lots of them. This is where the membership comes in to provide those concrete facts.....Maj.....

You have made statements regarding what you consider to be 'fundamental design flaws' in Jabiru engines that I have asked you to support with proper, considered evidence; you have failed to so do. I do not consider that to be providing 'concrete facts'.

 

However, what concerns me more is the fact that you - as a member of the RAA Board, for god's sake - wage a relentless campaign of denigration against the aircraft and engines that more than one-third of RAA members own and fly. Even when there is news of a serious effort being made by a reputable company with the expertise, the capability and the commitment to improve the reliability of those aircraft, you relentlessly continue to pursue a path of utter negativity and complete denial that such an effort might be productive, by what amounts to spewing bile towards anything Jabiru or connected to it. You quite evidently seek to destroy any confidence those members, or any new potential members might have, in Jabiru / Jabiru-related products.

 

Given that you are a Member of the Board and have presumed to state an apparent position taken by RAA, I imagine that a legal challenge to some of your commentary on Jabirus might place you / the RAA in an interesting if not difficult position. Exactly what 'something in the interests of safety and the goodwill of the members' relating to Jabiru aircraft and engines is 'the RAA aware of '? Your comment suggests that there is a determination on the part of the RAA to take some action and it is merely gathering facts before deciding on some course of action, as it has a responsibility to do if there is a safety issue. As a Jabiru owner I regard this as an implicit threat to the future operation (and hence the utility and value) of my aircraft. I now place you on notice to provide me, as a member of RAA, with details of what RAA has and is considering, in the form of a response that is similarly public as your statement so that ALL Jabiru owner/operators and any person considering becoming an owner / operator has the benefit of being forewarned as to the nature, extent and possible effects of 'something to be done in the interests of safety and goodwill'.

 

Without the existence of Jabiru aircraft and engines, the numbers of RAA aircraft on the register would be cut dramatically. During the Registration debacle, as it happened, we saw the grounding / severe restriction on the operation of a considerable number of aircraft. Jabirus continued to shift the load of RAA flying - training in particular. As it happened, the majority of aircraft that were grounded / subject to immediate and highly-restrictive limits on their previously-presumed capability to operate (including Ibis, Sting and Pipistrel aircraft) during the Registration debacle were not Jabiru made / Jabiru-powered so a threat to the continued operation of Jabiru / Jabiru-powered aircraft, if it were true, would decimate the availability of capable aircraft for RAA operation as we know it.

 

 

[DrZoos]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/weekly-summaries.aspx

 

They only need to get someone to sift thru these and they will have a fair picture.

 

Simply right click in each pdf and search the word jabiru. You will find them regualrly eg

 

These are just from searching about 12 weeks. So there is plenty of data there.

 

Thats an engine problem causing a reportable indecent on average 2 in every 3 weeks. If thats not reason to look into it then why do we report incidents??

 

06/11/2013 201310905 Incident No

 

Thangool

 

Aerodrome,

 

SW M 26Km

 

QLD Jabiru Aircraft J160 Sports Aviation Unknown G OCTA

 

During cruise, the pilot declared a PAN due to the

 

engine running roughly. The pilot subseqeuntly

 

reported that the engine performance had improved

 

and continued on to Thangool.

 

27/10/2013 201310722 Incident No

 

Launceston

 

Aerodrome,

 

330° M 55Km

 

TAS JABIRU J-LSA Sports Aviation Unknown G CTAF

 

During cruise, the engine began to run rough, and

 

the pilot conducted a precautionary landing in a

 

field. The nose wheel collapsed resulting in minor

 

damage.

 

12/10/2013 201309997 Serious

 

Incident No

 

Shepparton

 

Aerodrome,

 

006° M 35Km

 

VIC Jabiru Aircraft Pty

 

Ltd LSA 55/3J Sports Aviation Other G OCTA

 

During cruise, the engine failed and the pilot

 

conducted a forced landing into a paddock.

 

05/10/2013 201309076 Accident No

 

The Oaks

 

(ALA) NSW Jabiru Aircraft LSA 55/2J Private Pleasure / Travel G CTAF

 

During initial climb, the engine did not develop full

 

power and subseqeuntly failed during the circuit.

 

The pilot attempted to land back on the runway but

 

collided with trees resulting in substantial damage.

 

The pilot recieved minor injuries and the passenger

 

was seriously injured.

 

20/08/2013 201308044 Serious

 

Incident

 

No

 

Archerfield

 

Aerodrome,

 

110° M 30Km

 

(Near Mt

 

Cotton)

 

QLD Jabiru Aircraft J170-D Flying Training Training Dual G OCTA

 

During the flight, the engine failed and the pilot

 

conducted a forced landing in a paddock resulting in

 

minor damage

 

17/07/2013 201306928 Incident No Moorabbin

 

Aerodrome

 

VIC Jabiru Aircraft J160-D Private Unknown D CTR

 

While in the circuit, the engine started to run

 

roughly. The pilot conducted a precautionary

 

landing.

 

18/07/2013 201307022 Incident No Clifton (ALA) QLD Jabiru Aircraft J160 Private Unknown G CTAF

 

During circuit operations, the pilot detected smoke

 

in the cockpit. An engineering inspection revealed a

 

leak in the oil cooler.

 

01/08/2013 201307085 Serious

 

Incident

 

No Bundaberg

 

Aerodrome

 

QLD Jabiru Aircraft LSA Flying Training Training Dual G CTAF

 

During the initial climb, the aircraft's engine failed.

 

The crew conducted a forced landing on the

 

remaining runway available.

 

21/07/2013 201307009 Incident No

 

overhead

 

Moorabbin

 

Aerodrome

 

VIC Jabiru Unknown Sports Aviation Unknown D CTR

 

During the approach, the pilot reported a rough

 

running engine.

 

 

[Camel]

"I'm not arguing the facts, merely trying to put pressure on Jabaru to improve their product"....Quote :...Camel...It's nice to have some company, I and others have been trying to do it for at least six years !....The RAA is aware of the need to do something in the interest of safety and the goodwill of their members. Problem is they need solid facts, and lots of them. This is where the membership comes in to provide those concrete facts.....Maj.....

Maj, as you have the same intention as I have which is to improve the reliability of Jabiru engines then this is the golden opportunity, if Raa is aware and have an obligation, Camit obviously want to stay in business, they obviously believe the engine problems can be solved and it is essentially a good engine, they have been building the engine for a long time and would know better than anyone the faults, weaknesses and necessary improvements.

 

 

[kgwilson]

It is boxing day & I have just waded through all 8 pages of this thread. I have read through nearly all of the many threads in the past 4 years relating to the reliability of Jabiru engines compared to Rotaxes and none of them have changed my mind. Everyone has a level of knowledge, opinion, understanding, and bias from many sources including hearsay and personal experience. None of this has made me want to throw out my brand new Jab 3300 that has yet to be run for the first time.

 

Everyone at our airfield has had some problem or another with Lycomings, Continentals, Rotaxes or Jabirus but we all still fly with them. If it is man made it will fail at some point. Accept that and continue to strive for improvements. Bad mouthing a particular brand for whatever reason you have bottled up in your grey matter does nothing to aid improvement. It is just having an axe to grind. Go out & kick a wall or something. Did it make you feel better or did you just get a sore foot?

 

There is some good stuff here but far too much negativity. If you can't be positive it's time to give up.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Searching a bit further smoothes the data as expected.

 

06/06/2013 201305481 Incident No near Aberfoyle

 

(ALA)

 

NSW Jabiru J230 Sports Aviation Unknown G OCTA

 

During the cruise, the pilot detected fumes and

 

abnormal engine indications. The pilot conducted a

 

precautionary landing on a road.

 

30/06/2013 201306258 Serious

 

Incident

 

No

 

Lilydale

 

(ALA), NE M

 

6Km

 

VIC Jabiru 160C Sports Aviation Check &

 

Training

 

G CTAF

 

During descent, the engine began running roughly

 

and subsequently failed. The pilot conducted a

 

forced landing to the runway at Lilydale.

 

16/06/2013 201305779 Serious

 

Incident

 

No near Moorabbin

 

Aerodrome

 

VIC Jabiru J160 Flying Training Training Dual D CTR

 

During the climb, the crew heard a bang from the

 

engine followed by rough running and a loss of

 

power. The aircraft returned to Moorabbin. An

 

engineering inspection revealed a broken engine

 

through-bolt

 

23/05/2013 201304992 Serious

 

Incident No

 

Narrandera

 

Aerodrome,

 

103° T 41Km

 

(near Matong)

 

NSW Jabiru J230C

 

General

 

Aviation-

 

Unknown

 

Unknown G OCTA

 

The aircraft's engine failed and the pilot conducted a

 

forced landing.

 

27/05/2013 201305109 Incident No

 

Moorabbin

 

Aerodrome VIC Jabiru J160 Flying Training Training Dual D CTR

 

During initial climb, the engine ran roughly and the

 

aircraft returned to Moorabbin. An engineering

 

inspection revealed that the No. 4 cylinder exhaust

 

valve had failed.

 

07/05/2013 201304563

 

Serious

 

Incident No

 

near Moree

 

Aerodrome NSW Jabiru Aircraft 230 Private Unknown G OCTA

 

During the initial climb, the engine failed and the

 

pilot conducted a forced landing on a nearby

 

property. An engineering inspection revealed metal

 

contamination in the piston chamber.

 

21/04/2013 201304273 Incident No Tooradin

 

(ALA)

 

VIC Jabiru Aircraft J170C Flying Training Unknown G CTAF

 

During circuit training, the engine began to run

 

roughly and the pilot conducted a precautionary

 

landing. An engineering inspection revealed that the

 

forward lower cylinder retaining bolt had broken

 

off.

 

08/03/2013 201302262 Accident Yes -

 

AO-2013-046

 

Tyabb (ALA),

 

E M 4Km

 

VIC

 

JABIRU

 

AIRCRAFT PTY

 

LTD

 

J430 Private Unknown G OCTA

 

During the initial climb, the engine failed and the

 

pilot conducted a forced landing in mud flats. The

 

investigation is continuing.

 

20/07/2013 201307097 Incident No

 

near Thangool

 

Aerodrome QLD Jabiru Aircraft J170 Flying Training Unknown G CTAF

 

During the flight, the crew reported a rough running

 

engine and partial power loss. The aircraft returned

 

to Thangool. An inspection revealed internal

 

damage to the engine.

 

27/01/2013 201300813 Incident No near Robinvale

 

Aerodrome

 

VIC Jabiru J170C

 

General

 

Aviation-

 

Unknown

 

Unknown G OCTA

 

During cruise, the engine ran roughly and the crew

 

detected an abnormal oil pressure indication and

 

diverted to Robinvale.

 

 

[facthunter]

Responding to KGW.. Be sure to force lubricant through your engines oil galleries before firing it up and a couple of squirts into the carburetter as soon as it fires. Motors that have sat around need a bit of extra care. Learn as much as you can about proper servicing and inspections. and inhibiting it when not in use. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/weekly-summaries.aspxThey only need to get someone to sift thru these and they will have a fair picture.

 

Simply right click in each pdf and search the word jabiru. You will find them regualrly eg

 

These are just from searching about 12 weeks. So there is plenty of data there.

 

Thats an engine problem causing a reportable indecent on average 2 in every 3 weeks. If thats not reason to look into it then why do we report incidents??

 

06/11/2013 201310905 Incident No

 

Thangool

 

Aerodrome,

 

SW M 26Km

 

QLD Jabiru Aircraft J160 Sports Aviation Unknown G OCTA

 

During cruise, the pilot declared a PAN due to the

 

engine running roughly. The pilot subseqeuntly

 

reported that the engine performance had improved

 

and continued on to Thangool.

 

27/10/2013 201310722 Incident No

 

Launceston

 

Aerodrome,

 

330° M 55Km

 

TAS JABIRU J-LSA Sports Aviation Unknown G CTAF

 

During cruise, the engine began to run rough, and

 

the pilot conducted a precautionary landing in a

 

field. The nose wheel collapsed resulting in minor

 

damage.

 

12/10/2013 201309997 Serious

 

Incident No

 

Shepparton

 

Aerodrome,

 

006° M 35Km

 

VIC Jabiru Aircraft Pty

 

Ltd LSA 55/3J Sports Aviation Other G OCTA

 

During cruise, the engine failed and the pilot

 

conducted a forced landing into a paddock.

 

05/10/2013 201309076 Accident No

 

The Oaks

 

(ALA) NSW Jabiru Aircraft LSA 55/2J Private Pleasure / Travel G CTAF

 

During initial climb, the engine did not develop full

 

power and subseqeuntly failed during the circuit.

 

The pilot attempted to land back on the runway but

 

collided with trees resulting in substantial damage.

 

The pilot recieved minor injuries and the passenger

 

was seriously injured.

 

20/08/2013 201308044 Serious

 

Incident

 

No

 

Archerfield

 

Aerodrome,

 

110° M 30Km

 

(Near Mt

 

Cotton)

 

QLD Jabiru Aircraft J170-D Flying Training Training Dual G OCTA

 

During the flight, the engine failed and the pilot

 

conducted a forced landing in a paddock resulting in

 

minor damage

 

17/07/2013 201306928 Incident No Moorabbin

 

Aerodrome

 

VIC Jabiru Aircraft J160-D Private Unknown D CTR

 

While in the circuit, the engine started to run

 

roughly. The pilot conducted a precautionary

 

landing.

 

18/07/2013 201307022 Incident No Clifton (ALA) QLD Jabiru Aircraft J160 Private Unknown G CTAF

 

During circuit operations, the pilot detected smoke

 

in the cockpit. An engineering inspection revealed a

 

leak in the oil cooler.

 

01/08/2013 201307085 Serious

 

Incident

 

No Bundaberg

 

Aerodrome

 

QLD Jabiru Aircraft LSA Flying Training Training Dual G CTAF

 

During the initial climb, the aircraft's engine failed.

 

The crew conducted a forced landing on the

 

remaining runway available.

 

21/07/2013 201307009 Incident No

 

overhead

 

Moorabbin

 

Aerodrome

 

VIC Jabiru Unknown Sports Aviation Unknown D CTR

 

During the approach, the pilot reported a rough

 

running engine.

These are bare incident reports; they contain no analysis whatever as to the cause. Without proper incident investigation and analysis (and I would challenge the competence of RAA to make a valid engineering appraisal of the actual CAUSE of an engine mechanical issue) they have no useful content. There's a big step from such an incident report to a valid defect report. I suggest you look at the defect reports on the CASA website. There's an even bigger step between a defect report and a valid engineering identification of the cause.

Your question is, however, quite valid - what useful purpose does it serve to send incident reports to RAA, since RAA is obviously incapable of dealing with such reports in a meaningful way?

 

 

[kgwilson]

Responding to KGW.. Be sure to force lubricant through your engines oil galleries before firing it up and a couple of squirts into the carburetter as soon as it fires. Motors that have sat around need a bit of extra care. Learn as much as you can about proper servicing and inspections. and inhibiting it when not in use. Nev

Hi FH. The engine & carb have plenty of inhibitor in them. When I removed the carb to install the carb temp probe it dribbled out onto the hangar floor. As far as I am aware CAMit inject the inhibitor after the initial test run & then they shrink wrap the engine. I have always planned to turn the engine over with the plugs removed before initial start & make sure oil is pumped around.

 

 

[turboplanner]

"The RAA is aware of the need to do something in the interest of safety and the goodwill of their members. "A personal opinion is one thing and there are many and varied ones of them. I would suggest caution in making such a public statement on behalf of RAA as the "organisation" may be called on to justify such an opinion. Could get very untidy - expensive even.

This is more than a personal opinion; I've databased about 35 Jabiru forced landings due to engine failure from May 07 to March 12 from about half the available figures from an official RAA publication.

 

One day I'll database the other half, but if we assume the numbers are the same, that would be about 70 forced landings in the five year period which were reported.

 

 

With numbers like that, RAA have a duty of care issue which could hit members hard, so if anything was going to get untidy, expensive even, and all the facts came out officially Major is probably on very firm ground.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Don't care. - just an observation

 

 

[DrZoos]

This is more than a personal opinion; I've databased about 35 Jabiru forced landings due to engine failure from May 07 to March 12 from about half the available figures from an official RAA publication.

Well if you look at the figures above i just got from the weekly summaries of casa incidents there is going to be a lot more then 35 from engine related problems. There is around 15-20 there (depending on what you classify as one) just from 2013 but in defence of Jabiru the causes are very varied, but i only posted the pure engine related ones. There where several others eg fuel, a spark plug etc. But i thought those irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Sure these dont have enough detail. But the reports all have been submitted and if anyone did want to investigate, that has authority (eg RAA or cASA or ATSB) it wouldnt be hard to contact the individuals and find out the eventual cause and fix.

 

 

[facthunter]

It takes a while for lubricant to be pumped around through the normal supply. It is good practice to pressurise with all motors especially with hydraulic lifters where you could bend a push rod if it popped out partially. Even leaving the motor a few weeks can cause cylinder corrosion in normal use if you are not careful. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

These are bare incident reports; they contain no analysis whatever as to the cause. Without proper incident investigation and analysis (and I would challenge the competence of RAA to make a valid engineering appraisal of the actual CAUSE of an engine mechanical issue) they have no useful content. There's a big step from such an incident report to a valid defect report. I suggest you look at the defect reports on the CASA website. There's an even bigger step between a defect report and a valid engineering identification of the cause.Your question is, however, quite valid - what useful purpose does it serve to send incident reports to RAA, since RAA is obviously incapable of dealing with such reports in a meaningful way?

Dr Zoos was quoting ATSB figures.

 

From RAA records showing around 35 Jabiru forced landings between May 07 to March 12 the RAA has provided enough identification of causes to enable manufacturer, maintenance officials and owners to get some urgency into solving some of these problems.

 

For example, causes listed are:

 

Through Bolts: 14

 

Exhaust Valve: 5

 

Valve (but maybe exhaust valve): 6

 

Cylinder cracks: 2

 

Cracked Head: 1

 

Seized: 3

 

Not included in above: 4

 

That's about half the public records for the period

 

I've previously mentioned that I've yet to see one public metallurgical report on thru bolts, and without that there have been dozens of speculations as to what cause the bolts to fail, but nothing conclusive in the public domain.

 

RAA is NOT a controlling body so the members certainly do not have to foot the bill for a manufacturer's problems.

 

It is however a self administering body with a duty of care to ensure the safety of all areas it administers, so there's no reason why they could not take a range of sanctions up to the traditional grounding of all similar aircraft. There are plenty of ways RAA can improve this situation.

 

However, suggesting there's no purpose in sending incident reports to CASA will only just expand the feral sector who don't do that now, and the more this occurs, the less control the Association has until a point where control is taken away from RAA, either by an external authority, or more likely financially in the form of lawsuits.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There where several others eg fuel, a spark plug etc. But i thought those irrelevant to this discussion.

I did the same taking out anything that indicated poor maintenace (like "spark plug fell out"). Where the aircraft was nursed to a landing, glide or idle and subsequently found to be unserviceable (e.g. oil pouring out of it) I classed that as a forced landing, and there were two or three of those.

 

 

[facthunter]

Dr Zoos I doubt the owner(s) would have a full appreciation of the damage, let alone the cause in most instances. Some of those listed could be carb icing. Too lacking in information to be of much value. Nev

 

 

[Camel]

I say again the statistics don't mean a lot without a lot of facts about individual cases, there are problems with many engines, Lycoming 0-320 H2AD was a lemon with serious faults and many were produced and still in service, with the T mod and the correct oil or additive and correct maintenance with roller rocker modification later introduced, Other Lycomings broke crankshafts. I've seen plenty of poor designs usually caused by being cheap. Jabiru are looking at China, will this improve things ? I would like to see Camit succeed and like what their doing.

 

Grounding is not the answer but recognition of a problem, looking for remedy and allowing modifications that improve reliability to be done without effecting certification. Certification is the load of crap here and stops sensible modification to ensure safe operation. I have a Rotax and 3300, if you don't have a Jab engine then why are you writing or interested here, this is not a Holden Ford thing, it is about improving a good thing. If you think flying is dangerous then don't fly, if you like Rotax then buy one, if you like Jabiru then buy it, this is not about what's better it's about improving products and this is bound up by regulations and BS let alone people who are in denial and people that want all grounded, do not be blind and foolish this is a case if you want aviation to be enjoyed by average humans then we need to work together and stop regulators dictating and work with them, encourage them to improve things not shut down things as implied by someone.

 

Remember some cars need repairs more often than others eg brakes and clutches, these are operator problems, a Jabiru has to climb at a speed sufficient to allow cooling, a serious problem with Jabiru and the start of problems, my belief one of the most important problems, the other is lubrication and there are a lot of facts around this and the rest can be put down to maintenance or design and of course anything else that counts as operator error.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

This is more than a personal opinion; I've databased about 35 Jabiru forced landings due to engine failure from May 07 to March 12 from about half the available figures from an official RAA publication.One day I'll database the other half, but if we assume the numbers are the same, that would be about 70 forced landings in the five year period which were reported.

 

 

With numbers like that, RAA have a duty of care issue which could hit members hard, so if anything was going to get untidy, expensive even, and all the facts came out officially Major is probably on very firm ground.

Do the statistics on engine failure identify the cause of the engine failure? I've been trying for years to get authoritative data on any aero engines that breaks down the causes in sufficient detail to allow one to identify design priorities. However, the term "engine failure" includes fuel starvation, fuel mismanagement, misuse of mixture controls (tho not on Jabirus, obviously), carbie icing, failure of accessories such as magnetors, fuel pumps etc. Hell, one of the things Zoos mentioned was a leaky oil cooler. The oil cooler is an AIRFRAME part, you goose, not an engine part - except on those Continentals that build it into the engine. So how the blazes can anybody pin anything down onto the engine design, given such sloppy handling of the data? All right, there's an issue with Jabiru through bolts. Can you identify exactly what is the cause of that issue? I bet you cannot; and don't just tell me "it's because they are not strong enough" - if that were the case, the cylinders would fly off the first time the throttle was opened. It's much more subtle than that, and likely has a number of contributing factors. So, there have been some valve failures. Where's the metallurgical analysis to show why they failed? Without that, the only conclusion one could reach is that we'd be better off with 2-strokes that do not have valves. These data are simply too superficial to be useful. So people like Maj can rant, but it cuts no ice at all. First, fix the data base so it provides some fundamental engineering data - and mind you make sure it's correct.

I'm more than ever reminded of the dog that chases cars, but wouldn't know what to do with one if he caught it. Pray tell me, exactly what could RAA do, that would be really useful, with your data base, if they had it? Duty of care my foot; they do not have the technical know-how.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Do the statistics on engine failure identify the cause of the engine failure? I've been trying for years to get authoritative data on any aero engines that breaks down the causes in sufficient detail to allow one to identify design priorities. However, the term "engine failure" includes fuel starvation, fuel mismanagement, misuse of mixture controls (tho not on Jabirus, obviously), carbie icing, failure of accessories such as magnetors, fuel pumps etc. Hell, one of the things Zoos mentioned was a leaky oil cooler. The oil cooler is an AIRFRAME part, you goose, not an engine part - except on those Continentals that build it into the engine. So how the blazes can anybody pin anything down onto the engine design, given such sloppy handling of the data? All right, there's an issue with Jabiru through bolts. Can you identify exactly what is the cause of that issue? I bet you cannot; and don't just tell me "it's because they are not strong enough" - if that were the case, the cylinders would fly off the first time the throttle was opened. It's much more subtle than that, and likely has a number of contributing factors. So, there have been some valve failures. Where's the metallurgical analysis to show why they failed? Without that, the only conclusion one could reach is that we'd be better off with 2-strokes that do not have valves. These data are simply too superficial to be useful. So people like Maj can rant, but it cuts no ice at all. First, fix the data base so it provides some fundamental engineering data - and mind you make sure it's correct.I'm more than ever reminded of the dog that chases cars, but wouldn't know what to do with one if he caught it. Pray tell me, exactly what could RAA do, that would be really useful, with your data base, if they had it? Duty of care my foot; they do not have the technical know-how.

I know you weren't aiming it at me but before you start calling someone a goose it would pay to think about collateral damage.

 

The 35 forced landings is the key important factor for everyone, because we are at the wrong end of the law of averages for the next 356 to have a fatality free landing.

 

Some esoterical analysis paid for by someone other than yourself would be a good starting point, but "Eureka, this was the exact cause!" is the responsibility of the engine manufacturer who may well find this out if there is a bad crash.

 

The six specific symptoms of engine failure form a good starting point for a manufacturer to run down the actual causes, and what you and I are saying is parallel in some respects, particularly starting with a metallurgical analysis.

 

The fact that ATSB are also publishing abbreviated engine failure reports is a very interesting development.

 

In the meantime I'd suggest the title of this thread is a little premature.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Regardless of whether the oil cooler is an airframe part or not I seem to remember the one I saw fail was supplied by jab.

 

 

[Oscar]

Dr Zoos was quoting ATSB figures.From RAA records showing around 35 Jabiru forced landings between May 07 to March 12 the RAA has provided enough identification of causes to enable manufacturer, maintenance officials and owners to get some urgency into solving some of these problems.

Horseshit. Pure, plain and simple horseshit. The RAA Accident and Incident reports have NEVER stated a 'cause'. They have described a condition/s that was/were believed to have contributed to the incident; they have never published a statement of 'cause'. The actual 'cause' of the condition requires analysis of all the factors that contributed to the condition. For a proper analysis of the 'cause' of an incident, look at: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.recreationalflying.com%2Fimages%2FSmith%2520and%2520Guthrie%2520Finding%2520-%2520Final.doc&ei=87u7UuDyBsjWkgWY64GQCg&usg=AFQjCNGM2DoUc4oFTxfiyw141_kLZuo3DA&bvm=bv.58187178,d.dGI

 

Don't insult our intelligence by purporting to have discovered 'causes', when what you have to report is extrapolation of a summary of 'conditions'.

 

 

[Oscar]

I know you weren't aiming it at me but before you start calling someone a goose it would pay to think about collateral damage.In the meantime I'd suggest the title of this thread is a little premature.

The title of this thread is: "major weaknesses addressed." Since you appear to be unfamiliar with the definition of addressed, let me draw your attention to the Oxforddictionaries.com definition of 'addressed':

 

'think about and begin to deal with (an issue or problem)'

 

In fact, CAMit have not only addressed, but with the evidence of results I believe will be able to show that they have redressed, some major weaknesses. Your initial comment demonstrates ignorance of the correct use of the terminology. We will have to await and see if the results of addressing the issues is successful.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Regardless of whether the oil cooler is an airframe part or not I seem to remember the one I saw fail was supplied by jab.

We're talking about ENGINES, right?

 

 

[turboplanner]

The title of this thread is: "major weaknesses addressed." Since you appear to be unfamiliar with the definition of addressed, let me draw your attention to the Oxforddictionaries.com definition of 'addressed':'think about and begin to deal with (an issue or problem)'

 

In fact, CAMit have not only addressed, but with the evidence of results I believe will be able to show that they have redressed, some major weaknesses. Your initial comment demonstrates ignorance of the correct use of the terminology. We will have to await and see if the results of addressing the issues is successful.

Well after all those hot air posts it's good that we now have a definition that the problems have not been resolved after all, so we are back to waiting for results from engines as they go into service.