Am I my Brother's Keeper ? ? ?

[Phil Perry]

Am I my Brother’s Keeper ? ? . . . the Difficult question. . . . .

 

Had an interesting chat at the aero club this last evening with regard to “Odd” pilots, ie, members who seeme to exhibit unusual flying behaviour, and/or odd, or strange attitudes to flying which may / might at some point be a precursor to something rather bad happening.

 

Now, I have to be honest, I have no problem with pilots who are extremely interested in the pastime, nor those who, occasionally exhibit a bit of, . . .er,. . .shall we call it, “EXUBERANT” flying,. . .so long as it does not become a risk to themselves and others on the airfield. I think it is far too easy to fall into the current, all encompassing “Elf ‘N’ Safety trap which pervades this country nowadays, ie, EVERYTHING is dangerous and must be curtailed and / or SEVERELY regulated and absolutely controlled. . . . but there are people out there who go that little bit further.

 

So,. . .where do we, as friends and cohorts draw the line and stand up and say something about it ??

 

After serving as a club airfield safety officer for over 20 years, I’ve seen it all, ( well, . . . most of it anyway. . .) We’ve had alcoholic pilots performing in wobblywings ( I think you Aussies call them “trikes” ) actually sipping from cans of 9% special brew lager . . . . to the “PPA” ( Private Pilot Acoholics) who drink in secret for some Dutch courage,. . ., and THEN go and fly.

 

We’ve had a member of the United Kingdom “Dangerous Sports Club” learn to fly to a basic standard, and then go out with the minimum hours in his logbook and kill himself and seriously injure a passenger whilst attempting to perform an aerobatic manoeuvre for which the machine was not designed and for which he had no training anyway. . .

 

What would YOU DO. . . . . if someone at your airfield started to display “Odd” traits ? . . . would you have a quiet word ? or would you just ignore them.

 

I knew a pilot named Alan Matthews, who used to fly his PA28 into our field on a very regular basis to have a bacon butty in the clubhouse on a weekend, and he joined us when we had our regular annual flyout to the Isle of Man TT motorcycle bash, where we used to camp on an old WW2 airfield on the North end of the Island and all get ratarsed together around the airfield campfire after watching the racing.

 

At NO TIME did I EVER see him behave in a daft way with his aeroplane, and he always had the “Missus” along with him.

 

I won’t go into it here, but I found out from a few of the members at his own club airfield,. . . .that he was forever “Pushing” the envelope” and stunting at low level.

 

This begs the obvious question, ( Especially if you read the report ) WHY oh WHY didn’t someone say something ? ? ? ? ? This might possibly have saved the lives of Emma and Nick O’Brien (29 and 35 respectively ), and not left their two babies with no parents. . . . *

 

If you’re interested in a very sad tale, google “Light aircraft crash – Staffordshire UK October 2009 “

 

Read the reports and you’ll probably be as surprised as I was to learn more about this bloke.

 

It beggars belief how he could have gotten away with having no license or medical for so many years but. . . . . that’s club airfields perhaps. . . .

 

I wonder how many other Alan Matthews types are still out there with everyone around them letting them get away with it . . . . The mind boggles.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Good post Phil.........and a Merry Xmas to you and your family, and flying friends, up there next to the North Pole.........

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Good post Phil.........and a Merry Xmas to you and your family, and flying friends, up there next to the North Pole.........

Hey Ross,

 

Many thanks for the Xmas wishes and the same to you and the family. ( bit of a sad post though,. . .sorry to dampen the mood at this festive time of year, but I'd just got back from the Club and we had somehow got onto this subject and the members told us about a couple of other blokes who ( maybe ) need watching a little more closely in the future. . . . )

 

We have quite a few ( hundred ) pilots over in the UK who ( allegedly ) fly "Under the radar" without any documentation, amazing how they get away with it. . . . and now thay are about to DE-REGULATE single seaters up to 390 KGs Max Takeoff Weight,. . . .so that they won't require any Permit to fly. I wonder what the insurance companies are going to make of that idea . . .( Ho Ho Ho ) I think they'll HAVE to still have a safety inspection of SOME sort, I'm sure that YOU and possibly ME ( ! !) with our vast knowledge of all things aeronautique ( ! ) would be OK maintaining our own aeroplanes to an acceptably safe standard, but what about Howard the accountant, who doesn't know his canard from his can of wd40. . .? My mind boggles once again. . . Hey, I almost forgot, a guy just offered me a two seat aeroplane with a Rotax 582 nailed on the front for the miserly sum of 800 quid ! ! ! I said I'd think about it if he got sensible with the price ! ! !

 

No, serously, I could buy that and convet it into a single seater, and take advantage of the new SSDR ( Single seat dergulation ) and opeate it out of a trailer ! ! !

 

Just got to convince the missus to let me have the money out of the jamjar on the kitchen shelf. . . . . mmmmm

 

Merry everything. Phil

 

Phil

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Interesting title quote from Cain (Genesis 4v9 - after he had murdered his own brother).

 

 

[Yenn]

Back to the question. You could do what I did with an instructor who was always pushing the envelope. Have a quiet word, and when that didn't work tick him off in public.

 

It all got nasty when someone else dobbed him in to CASA and his mates wouldn't believe it wasn't me. Eventually they discovered it wasn't me and life became bearable again and I an happy to say the instructor changed his ways. He was always a nice bloke, but now he is sensible with it.

 

 

[M61A1]

I would like to think that we are in no way, our brother's keeper, natural selection should be allowed to function, encouraged even.

 

That said, I do realise we live in world where our pitiful media has people convinced that we should all be protected from ourselves, and that people worry about the public perception of what we do, despite it being of no concern of the public at all, providing what we do harms no-one else.

 

Please understand, when I mention natural selection, it doesn't necessarily mean just sit back and watch what happens. I think that advice can, and should, be given. That includes warning potential victims that may be harmed. The selection bit is what happens when stuff is done despite being warned. Warnings can be verbal from a friend or colleague, or just a close call that should tell you not to do that.

 

Another thing to ask yourself is, "would having a licence, a current medical and maintenance release made a difference?". I suspect that the harsh reality is that it wouldn't, he would've just died with a licence and medical, and passengers killed by a licenced pilot.

 

The sooner society moves away from this idea that we are all responsible for making laws to protect us from ourselves the better off we will be.

 

I watched part of a 60 minutes piece a week ago about people who liked to climb ice waterfalls, despite being exceptionally fit, professional and cautious, the reporter was still trying to convince them that they were insanely reckless, and nothing more than a danger to themselves.

 

The line that grates on me the most from any so called journalist on a slow news week is " are we (as a society) doing enough to stop this kind of behaviour?", usually in regard to someone doing something where he or she is the only one at risk. Let them go, let them learn a lesson, we'll all be better off for it.

 

It just about gives me an aneurysm when I see a cop be interviewed carrying on about risking his life, to stop someone who didn't need stopping, for example: a teenager climbing a building wall.

 

In short, don't worry yourself over it Phil, I very much doubt that anything you or anyone else had to say would have changed the outcome, but there will probably be a politician, journalist or a lawyer somewhere who will try to convince you that somehow it wasn't his fault, but someone else's.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Back to the question. You could do what I did... Have a quiet word, and when that didn't work tick him off in public.It all got nasty when ...

What is it about us humans, that when we get caught out doing something that we know is wrong, we almost always turn on those who call us on it? How DARE they!?

 

 

[facthunter]

I think one has an obligation to lead by example. We only get one life and it is a pity to lose it proving little other than you are careless and undisciplined. (I don't mean YOU. I'm generalising). Flying is one activity where there is plenty of opportunity to have something quite drastic ie fatal. occur. If it was only YOU that would be bad enough but it is often others as well. I don't like stupid rules or pretend "tick boxes" but too many deaths and our freedoms are gone. Nev

 

 

[greybeard]

There's a lot of comment regarding 'self risk' and 'only hurting themselves' but like it or not it's pretty unusual for an injury or death to only impact the victim. Someone else has to inform the next of kin, scrap up the mess, lead a life without a friend and/or relative etc and that's without the $ cost to society involved in caring for those that don't manage to completely wipe themselves out and require medical treatment.

 

Some people can't be told no matter what but I see nothing wrong with pointing out the potential impact on others as a result of their actions.

 

 

[farri]

I believe in personal responsibility. I also believe that the population is made up of individuals. Right and wrong, good and bad is relative to the objective and the objective can be changed. The whole population dose not deserve! and should not be penalised! because of the deeds of any individual.

 

Am I my brothers keeper? Absolutely not!!!... Does this mean I would not give someone advice if I thought I could help them? Absoutely not!!!.. I have done so on many ocasions over the years.

 

Do we have an obligation to lead by example? Tell me where it is we should be leading!!!

 

Should I not do something that I am capable of doing, simply because someone else is not capable?

 

Just my personal philosophy.

 

Frank.

 

Ps, I`m now going to get off this computer and take my neighbors son flying.

 

 

[M61A1]

There's a lot of comment regarding 'self risk' and 'only hurting themselves' but like it or not it's pretty unusual for an injury or death to only impact the victim. Someone else has to inform the next of kin, scrap up the mess, lead a life without a friend and/or relative etc and that's without the $ cost to society involved in caring for those that don't manage to completely wipe themselves out and require medical treatment.Some people can't be told no matter what but I see nothing wrong with pointing out the potential impact on others as a result of their actions.

I agree, nothing wrong with telling them, or prospective passengers, will it make a difference? maybe for the passengers, probably not for the pilot. I think maybe part of the problem is that society picks up the bill, a bit of "you're on your own", probably wouldn't hurt.

Edit: The self risk thing is one of the founding concepts of recreational aviation, in my understanding.

 

 

[metalman]

I wouldn't consider trying to be anyone's keeper, I would ,and have ,chat to someone if I think the holes are lining up and perhaps they haven't seen it, for me when it starts to involve non flying pax ,I will say something, when it involves suspect maintenance I'll be quite vocal about whether I'd go up in the machine in question. I don't think there's a one answer for every situation here , and for the record I love that as PIC I am left to my own devices rather than legislated into total safety,

 

Matty

 

 

[farri]

Hey Guys, I`m back! ....Off topic I know but someone might enjoy this. Taken this afternoon by my neighbours son Michael who is up here from Perth, for Christmas.

 

 

No! It`s not after last light.

 

Frank.

 

 

[M61A1]

Hey Guys, I`m back! ....Off topic I know but someone might enjoy this. Taken this afternoon by my neighbours son Michael who is up here from Perth, for Christmas.[ATTACH=full]26555[/ATTACH]

 

No! It`s not after last light.

 

Frank.

For a brief moment before I realised it was a fisheye lense, I was a bit concerned about your flying wires being all loose.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some people seem pre- destined for grief. No matter what is done and said, they just aren't right for a flying environment. On the other side of the coin TRAINING is of the essence. You won't know what to do in complex aircraft, (or even simple ones) without the right training. The instructor has a big responsibility there. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

Technology and wealth has halted human evolution in Aus and now all we have left to protect the gene pool is cigarettes and idiots. You cant ban both.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The lack of community is one reason aviation is on the decline, sport for the wealthy.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Can't understand anyone not wanting to socialise with you? Perhaps as you say it's having too much money, deters them.

 

 

[facthunter]

Stay away from single seat aeroplanes. Not sociable.... Wealthy? Aviation is people who would have been wealthy, but for aviation. Have a speedboat, swimming pool and be rich and there will always be people around you.. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

The lack of community is one reason aviation is on the decline, sport for the wealthy.

I disagree, I think, as recreation, it's on the decline because people are getting lazier, and building your own requires effort, but not a lot of cost. They want to go and buy one off the shelf, right now, without the effort, but that's where it does get expensive. So those that are too lazy to build (or rebuild) will say that they can't afford a new one, so it's for the wealthy.

 

 

[facthunter]

The RAAus is the last chance for cheap aviation, but you need skills, (and time) that few have if you are really going to be innovative and do your own thing and make it work.

 

It would be nice to have facilities that could be shared, or live on an aerodrome where pilots live on the boundary on an aerodrome on a corrosion free tropical island somewhere where the weather was always perfect and only tailwinds on cruise, cheap fuel and everyone agreed with ME. nev

 

 

[Bandit12]

I agreed with you Nev, just so you won't feel lonely on that island.

 

 

[Bandit12]

The lack of community is one reason aviation is on the decline....

I find myself in the unenviable position of having to agree with you Fly - only happens once a year or so

 

There isn't just a lack of community in aviation, there is a lack of it across the board. How many people actively volunteer for social or community groups? Less than there was, if you look at scouting as one example. I'd love to take up gliding, but sadly I can't afford the time to spend whole days and weekends as part of a club, and with gliding it is expected that everyone pitches in.

 

Let's not be calling people lazy though, that is a big generalisation that is very value laden. Someone who works hard and makes enough money to buy off the shelf is hardly lazy; nor is the person who acknowledges their own lack of technical skills and so chooses to pay rather than attempt to learn.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Its better to have an aircraft that are shared. I went halves with my father and my son flys as well. So having three pilots makes it a much more affordable proposition. Even with me flying the pants off it , it still sits there 95% of the daylight hours unflown. If you can halve or thirds the cost it makes it pretty affordable flying.

 

The only time it will be a problem is if we both want to fly at the same time to go somewhere and then we will hire one with all the money we saved.

 

 

[DrZoos]

There isn't just a lack of community in aviation, there is a lack of it across the board. How many people actively volunteer for social or community groups?

Not sure where you guys live. But around here community is alive and well. Our club thrives, and our community thrives and is built on huge volunteer hours across the board. Our club is full of awesome people and id say no one expects much of anyone other then respect of property and people. People just seem to get in and do what needs doing.... and no pressure is put on anyone.... I guess its different in clubs that have the huge workload to maintain an airstrip, ours is council owned and maintained which takes a lot of pressure off.

 

Let's not be calling people lazy though, that is a big generalisation that is very value laden. Someone who works hard and makes enough money to buy off the shelf is hardly lazy; nor is the person who acknowledges their own lack of technical skills and so chooses to pay rather than attempt to learn.

Here Here..... Im one of them. I know my abilities and if it where a rally car, i would build it, but when it could fail mid air , I was more then happy to go factory built. Im extremely far from lazy and would happily build an aircraft if i had the skills and time. But i dont and im happy to say, building an aircraft is something i will let the experts do with the right procedures, skills, tools and knowledge.