What can be done???

[farri]

In the early days of the AUF, most pilot traing was done in the Drifter and Thruster.

 

With ever increasing demands for the light sport aircraft, equipped with the latest technology, many

 

RA-Aus flying schools no longer use the Drifter and Thruster as their training aircraft. The result has been an ever increasing cost to the student pilot and recreational aviation,generaly.

 

The question is! How can the cost of recreational aviation be be made more affordable to more people ?

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There's not a lot of information available on new aircraft/kits, so some discussion on makes/models/prices/availability might start the discussion rolling.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I guess that a flying school can still have and use Quicksilvers as they are still in production. But I think that 95% of people who want to learn to fly want to in a Tecnam , Sportstart or similar.

 

 

[Nick Evison]

Operating a modern 4 stroke must be more economical, or maybe its a perception thing so Flying schools arent strapping people into a few bent bits of pipe and rag concoction anymore.

 

The Flying School i work with in pommyland train on Icarus C42 and streak shadows. 120 and 110 GBP P/H dual instruction respectively. not much of a price gap.

 

 

[pylon500]

Can recreational aviation be be made more affordable?

Really, the answer is NO.

Recreational aircraft as defined by the rules now being enforced, are really just light weight GA aircraft, and will soon cost just as much to operate as Cessnas and Pipers.

 

The concept of the 'Ultralight' aircraft had gone by the wayside once the 'get rich quick' flying schools (I know, and they know, they never did!) started following 'market' pressure, and using modern super ships, and pushing to get the rules to allow more modern, more super, ships.

 

Add to this the later generation GA pilots coming into ultralighting, but still wanting to have the equivalent of a Mooney to fly around in!

 

Of course the definition of super ship can vary depending where you look from;

 

Thruster and Drifter pilots thought, "That Lightwing's not an ultralight!, look its got doors, brakes, and it's doped and painted!"

 

I grew up with Lightwings, and looked at the Jabiru and thought "Those fly about the same as Cessna's, it should be GA!"

 

These days, most people that get the itch to look into cheap flying are not sure what to expect, so when shown Technams, Foxbats and Jabirus, take this as the norm, and should they see a Thruster or Drifter, would probably laugh their heads off, or shy away in fear.

 

They have no idea that this is where we all started, that these aircraft all flew, and within their class flew well.

 

I think Instructors with around twenty years of experience, would agree with me that the Lightwing is still probably the best ultralight trainer we ever had?!

 

Should I point out that, (to my knowledge) there has only been ONE fatality in their flying history, and that pilot may have died in flight?

 

Now they're trying to relegate them to non training private use, and/or force users to fly them in their original 1980's form, with inefficient (and not really certified, just approved) wooden props, and questioning things like oil injected two strokes, 912 conversions, long range tanks and the like.

 

So really, it won't be too long that when we only have super ships, and we are pretending to be, (and paying the price of) GA, should someone discover a lightweight flying machine made of aluminium tubes, with Dacron covering, a two stroke motor and a TAIL WHEEL, they wont know what it is or how to fly it, or even where to get trained to fly it.

 

Maybe about then, a group of people will get together and start a new flying group......

 

And they could call it the "Australian Ultralight Federation"

 

Flame suit ON

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The only cheap way to fly now is via simulation, GA have adopted it, so its only a matter of time. The problem is the schools are pressuring the RAA/CASA to stop it being introduced.

 

Simulation cuts insurance costs, aircraft costs, weather delays, aircraft maintenance delays, etc.

 

 

[pylon500]

Simulation cuts costs

Web porn is the similar, but just not quite the real thing....

 

 

[turboplanner]

Pylon, you're missing the point, the thread was not introduced to talk about Tecnams, Foxbats and Jabirus.

 

Nor is it about high end 912 powered Ultralights

 

Both those categories have their own set of issues such a price and touring limits.

 

This discussion started about the Drifter/Thruster Category with smaller engines and local flying expectations.

 

That's the marketing gap that is not being filled right now.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Give the RAAus/AUF the flick and go back to ANO95:10 issue 1.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You've said that a few dozen times Ozzie, just a one liner with no explanation.

 

How about explaining what the impediments are to building/buying a Drifter/Thruster type aircraft today?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Drifter/truster available as single seat these days or plans? What's a pilot certificate worth these days? More than what my Lazair is worth! Rego to fly on your own property. Imagine the stink if you had to be licensed and rego /ctp for your farm bike 4 wheeler, paddock basher.

 

 

[pylon500]

Pylon, you're missing the point

Am I missing the point?

I thought I was explaining WHY;

 

That's the marketing gap that is not being filled right now.

The money flyers are pushing for super ships, the schools are listening to the 'market', so the students and new pilots don't know any better!

 

Very few schools have the 'low end' any more, and sight seeing in a Jabiru is almost a contradiction of words...

 

The Foxbat is a bit more acceptable.

 

If you have a Drifter and tell people that you were flying along some deserted beach at 505 feet, they all throw their hands in the air saying your an accident waiting to happen.

 

No one seems to remember back when we only had 300 feet (yes, even I agree a bit dangerous), some may remember when we had 1500 feet, but now, if you don't have a flight plan, all the maps, your human factors test passed and an epirb, some will say you shouldn't even be flying, let alone along that deserted beach, even at 1500 feet.

 

WE'VE LOST THE PLOT, and we let it happen.

 

To be honest though, there are still a few of us stalwarts out there, trying to uphold the original cause.

 

I'm still teaching tail wheel, I'm using a two stroke Lightwing, although I've had to take the nice three blade 'Warp' off, and put the original crappy wooden prop back on.

 

Still, I can manage 500 fpm, which is better than the Gazelle I used with the crap 'Allsize' it had to have. (Climb damn you!!!)

 

Who knows, maybe flying low end ultralights may become trendy again, but it will need more marketing..

 

 

[robinsm]

it never stopped being trendy with some people.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

OK let's say a lot of people have lost the plot and now fly Jabs. Let's get that out of the way.

 

That leaves the Ultralight section we are talking about.

 

Ozzie is saying the cost is too high for training and pilot licensing, but the safety standards are not going to be dropped to the wild west days, so we need to get over that.

 

Furthermore, if training is carried out in a Drifter type aircraft the hourly rate will be proportionately lower.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I guess the next question is, what approved rag and tube types are left in production that can be used for training ? Apart from the Quicksilver aircraft I mentioned above.

 

Chinook- is still in production I think.

 

Thruster - the UK version

 

hmmm what else ?

 

 

[shafs64]

having started in GA then moving to RA aircraft I have notice the climb in prices. we now seem to be paying one hundred and fifty solo and hour for a good RA aircraft. that's what I was paying for GA when I first started And I know that RA training out of archer field QLD are paying over three hundred and hour. They really need to develop new rag and tube aircraft that is affordable. and market it. And try and get the RAA support. But some people think rage and tube and death traps that can make it a hard sell.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The obvious solution is to allow #19 aircraft to be used for training. Flight schools aren't too keen to miss out on the rental fees on their #24 aircraft

 

 

[Powerin]

Well, off the top of my head I thought of a school that offers Drifters to train in. A quick look at their website reveals that it costs exactly the same price to learn/hire in their Drifter as it does in their Foxbat....

 

I'd be happy if a special low cost or free membership/rego was offered to LP rag and tube pilots. But it would have to include all the restrictions they once had- single seat, 300ft max alt, no crossing roads, no insurance etc etc. As in the past, they could even teach themselves to fly if they wanted, reducing the cost even more. Also, aircraft would have to be clearly marked as belonging to this class so that they could be easily identified if they flew outside their restricted areas/heights and couldn't take advantage of the flying privileges full paying members enjoy.

 

I wonder how many would take advantage of this? The world is a different place from what it was in the 1980s. It's much more risk averse. Sometimes you can't wind back the clock to the good old days. Cheap motoring is a thing of the past too. Car registration is fast heading towards the $1000/year mark.

 

But if someone wants to fly their own aircraft over their own property below a height which affects any other type of aviation I can't see how that would hurt anyone.

 

 

[farri]

Well, off the top of my head I thought of a school that offers Drifters to train in. A quick look at their website reveals that it costs exactly the same price to learn/hire in their Drifter as it does in their Foxbat.....

and there lies part of the problem. There is no doubt that the Drifter would have been less expensive than the Foxbat, to purchase and operate!

 

Frank.

 

 

[dazza 38]

When we had a drifter online at Airsport QLD it was cheaper than the Tecnams but i can 't remember by how much though unfortunately, it was a few years ago.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I only know of few real ultraligth school in qld the are far & few EG : tail draggers & two stroke lightwing ,Thruster Driffter

 

 

[shafs64]

isn't there a few drifters based at boonah.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

isn't there a few drifters based at boonah.

Dont know about your southern brothers

 

 

[dazza 38]

Yes but none at the school

 

 

[dlegg]

I did quite a few lessons with greg in the drifter at Boonah, it cost $110 an hour. Way easier to fly than my old Thruster. I paid 20k for a rebuilt Thruster in 2000 then learnt to fly in it, only costing Instructors rates, flew it for 500hrs then sold it for 18k. So, a very cheap way to enter the ultralight game, I would do the same again.