motzartmerv Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Today I received a letter from the general manager stating that for some time now FTF's have not been covered by the RAA's insurance. They decided that the RAA shouldn't shell out for FTF insurance. And this is the first we are hearing of it? In some random explanation about some decision that was made in september? Please, somebody on the board tell me that you have not aloud me to continue to operate an FTF with no cover, without informing me. If so. You can take my ticket. Im done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 17, 2014 Author Share Posted January 17, 2014 Im not sure if this is cotia. But heres the letter.. Dear FTF (and SFTF) owner, Following its decision last September to raise Student and Pilot membership fees, the Board foreshadowed that it would also be undertaking a review all other fees and service charges (see http://www.raa.asn.au/2013/09/2013-annual-board-meeting-resolutions-2/ ). This has revealed a number of significant inconsistencies which are progressively being redressed. One particular concern is that Flying Training Facilities (i.e. FTFs and SFTFs) have, up until now, been afforded the full benefits of our Member Liability insurance cover without contributing to the annual premium cost. It has also emerged that, unlike affiliated Clubs, our FTFS and SFTFs make no recurrent financial contribution towards the organisation’s running costs. Facility owners will agree, perhaps, that this is an unsustainable situation. The Association’s 9,423 financial members and 44 Flying Clubs have, in effect, been fully funding the provision of free Liability insurance cover – and auditing - for our 172 FTFs. Just how this situation arose remains unclear. The Board has however acted quickly to correct this inequitable arrangement by ensuring that the benefits of Member Liability Insurance cover are – as originally intended – only available to those members who contribute to the annual premium cost (viz. full fee paying flying members and Clubs). While FTFs and SFTFs are currently no longer covered by these policy provisions, the option of extending our cover to include these facilities remains available. It’s recognised that some - if not many - Facilities may have already arranged their own liability insurance cover. We could nonetheless obtain a quote for extending our existing Liability cover provisions, should there be sufficient demand. To this end, I’d invite Facility owners to confirm their interest via email to [email protected] (Subject: Members Liability – FTFs), before February 7th February 2014. As the Board will also be considering the matter of annual membership fees for FTFs at its next meeting in Canberra (1st – 2nd March, 2014), we’d welcome prior input from all interested Facility owners. We hope to be able to circulate a written proposal – for comment - in the coming weeks. Yours sincerely, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryc Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Hi Motz, I'm sure there must be some mistake as no one [no not even raa] could be that stupid. I'm aware of a case where an insurance company cancelled a policy without informing their client and when an accident happened the insurance company still had to honour the policy. If an accident happened I'm in no doubt that raa would be liable. I'm not sure that their argument holds water, insurance is paid by the student and paid by the instructor so they should be covered, or when I did my bfr last week was I not covered. What if I go for a fly for fun with my instructor am I not covered, how do I convince the insurance company that it was a fun flight and not a training flight. What if I do training in my 19 rego aircraft am I covered then or will we cease that as an option for future aircraft builders. I could kept going but I won't. I understand your anger Motz. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Surely, as an FTF, you have your own liability insurance? It was required that I pay the liability insurance for my aircraft, which was being operated by a school in 2000. I am aware insurance cost are plain ridiculous, I just thought that all FTF's would have had their own in any case, and that this was one of the reasons for the high cost of training. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 According to the letter, our membership costs have been covering the insurance for FTF's, fit hey now want FTF's to cover themselves, I expect a decent drop in meh membership fees. As for insurance companies cancelling contracts and still having to pay up, that's not true, insurance companies, we'll car insurance policies can be cancelled any time without notice. I have seen the $70,000 legal bill trying to win that one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Seems fair that they be asked to contribute. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planesmaker Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I am a little confused here. The student and instructor are required to be members yes? So how would it not cover the contributing members( if all members are contributing). Please explain why if I fly my own RAA registered aircraft I am covered but if I fly the club plane (also RAA registered) I may not be? Come on, we are all members and are all contributing. I must be missing something here. Tom 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Evison Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 If i could understand the bloody acronyms i might have something to be upset about 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 If i could understand the bloody acronyms i might have something to be upset about They aren't acronyms, just year 3 level spelling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 If i could understand the bloody acronyms i might have something to be upset about FTF - Flight Training Facility SFTF - Satellite Flight Training Facility (I assume) RAA - I hope you know this one! I think there are 2 issues here- 1) Should FTFs be covered under the existing provisions? 2) Why weren't FCFs given notification, in advance, of the changes to be made I reckon Motz is justified in being pissed off at the communication(non)/notification on this issue - I would be absolutely livid. Pud 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Interesting to see that the RAA is down from 13,500 members to less than 9,500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 So has the RAA notified all the FTF about the insurance being removed? First I have heard of it. Not a squeak out of the reps I guess at some point they stop working for us and start working for the RAA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I first noticed about 2 years ago now that the CFI board had created this problem... I think what you are seeing is Ra Aus extracating itself from the commercial operations it was never designed or intended to encompass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerochute Kev Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 FT has hit the nail on the head. Our board members work for the organisation not as representatives of the members. We vote for a board member to represent our interests and as soon as they are elected they are forced by the other board members to sign a confidentiality agreement, meaning they can no longer keep us informed of what is happening or what decisions have been made on our behalf. Where did this agreement come from and what legal basis does the board have to force new members to sign? When I vote for a board member I don't include the proviso that they have to sign a confidentiality agreement so they can only tell us what the executive want us to know. As far as I know the constitution clearly gives access to all information and documents to a board member so who has the right to deny that access unless this agreement is signed? We have a previously very active and vocal member of this forum recently voted onto the board and I have noticed he has been very quiet about board activities since. The secrecy and underhanded way things get done in RAAus will never change as long as this agreement is in place. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I am a little confused here. The student and instructor are required to be members yes? So how would it not cover the contributing members( if all members are contributing). Please explain why if I fly my own RAA registered aircraft I am covered but if I fly the club plane (also RAA registered) I may not be? Come on, we are all members and are all contributing. I must be missing something here. Tom As far as I can tell from the insurance documents, the insurance covers the pilot for whatever aircraft they happen to fly. Note however that the insurance ONLY covers the pilot for third party liability....injury or property damage to others. As a pilot you are not covered in any way for your own loss or injury by this insurance. A payed up affiliated club hiring out an aircraft is covered...but again only for any liability to the club from third parties. It seems FTFs were once included in this cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 WTH!? Not sure what I missed here, but I thought that all students, pilots, instructors and all other members of the RAAus were covered for any liability (third person and/or property) via our membership fees. Why are they trying to look at FTF's and SFTF's as entities? They are just where you go to find the RAAus members?... Insurance companies will only look at TF's as some form of profit making business, which would become fair game for huge premiums! If this is the case, what the heel do our membership fee cover? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Interesting to see that the RAA is down from 13,500 members to less than 9,500 yes and the way things are going I can see it dropping down a lot further. I also get the feeling a lot more aircraft are coming up for sale. I think the rot is well and truly happening Well it was fun while it lasted:cops: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Our FTFs in fact ARE profit making businesses. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Some FTF's are non for profit clubs, with training ability.... Join the club, learn with the club, fly with the club and hopefully donate time and effort to uphold the club, that can supply you a mega-buck aircraft at just an hourly rate... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 So has the RAA notified all the FTF about the insurance being removed? First I have heard of it. Not a squeak out of the reps I guess at some point they stop working for us and start working for the RAA? FT could you explain the difference between "us" and "the RAA"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I don't want to start anything. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Some FTF's are non for profit clubs, with training ability....Join the club, learn with the club, fly with the club and hopefully donate time and effort to uphold the club, that can supply you a mega-buck aircraft at just an hourly rate... They all are supposed to be club structures according to my reading... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 yea. Im confused on several levels here. Just the same as some of you are. How does a club have to join a bigger club?When all the members and instructors are already members of the big club. I just dont get it. Our club has its own PL insurance and hangar insurance. So we are sweet for now. Im just confused about how the hell this all came about and how the attached letter is any sort of explanation or advice, sent out on friday afternoon.. Bloody low act if you ask me. I dont care, if we have to pay we have to pay, thats fine. We will just have to up the prices ...again..after the last hike and the fuel price rise of late. \But this treatment of the FTF's and clubs is despicable. Absolutely disgracefull behaviour. Talk about bite the hand that feeds them. Ive seriously had about as much as im willing to take from this show. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 And to think, I was just in process of filling out the paperwork, offering two aircraft and Instructors at cost price (fuel only) to the RAA for natfly to do TIFS. They can take a long walk off a short peer as far as im concerned. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 yea. Im confused on several levels here. Just the same as some of you are. How does a club have to join a bigger club?When all the members and instructors are already members of the big club. I just dont get it.Our club has its own PL insurance and hangar insurance. So we are sweet for now. Im just confused about how the hell this all came about and how the attached letter is any sort of explanation or advice, sent out on friday afternoon.. Bloody low act if you ask me. I dont care, if we have to pay we have to pay, thats fine. We will just have to up the prices ...again..after the last hike and the fuel price rise of late. \But this treatment of the FTF's and clubs is despicable. Absolutely disgracefull behaviour. Talk about bite the hand that feeds them. Ive seriously had about as much as im willing to take from this show. I don't pretend to know exactly...but my take would be this: A plane crashes into a house. The passenger of the aircraft and the owners of the house can sue the PIC for damages and injury. RAA insurance will cover the PIC for up to $10mil. If it is later found that the plane itself was defective and caused the crash then the pax and house owner might also sue the owner of the plane for negligence and damages. What I am assuming here is that if the owner of the plane is an affiliated paid-up member club the insurance policy will cover them, and also USED to cover commercial FTFs for free as well....but not any more it seems. I agree that it is biting the hand that feeds them. I'd interested to know how much premium saving there would be, if any, by dropping coverage for FTFs. If it costs members a dollar or two a year for the extra insurance I wouldn't mind that if it helps learning to fly to be a bit more affordable thus growing the organisation. The way the GM is talking it seems subsidised RAAus ASICs will be the next on the chopping block. There are less and less benefits flowing to members and rising membership fees. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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