Bad Experience with Jabiru

[kgwilson]

The original CASA list of 40 in flight engine failures came from an unedited list of incidents supplied by RA-Aus. When this was checked and in fact several more were added to make the total 46, all the incidents relating to fuel pump & oil leaks plus running out of fuel etc were removed to end up with 12 in flight engine failures resulting in forced landings. This was in 93,000 flights and 43,000 flying hours. When the 12 forced landings incidents were fully analysed, most were in flying schools and corrective measures had been in place for almost all of the 12 which had been implemented since 2011. There were no fatalities or serious injuries suffered as a result of the 12 forced landings.

 

Another interesting point is that the ATSB report showed that the Jabiru engine failure rate dropped after 2012 while the Rotax engine failure rate increased in the same period.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The original CASA list of 40 in flight engine failures came from an unedited list of incidents supplied by RA-Aus. When this was checked and in fact several more were added to make the total 46, all the incidents relating to fuel pump & oil leaks plus running out of fuel etc were removed to end up with 12 in flight engine failures resulting in forced landings. This was in 93,000 flights and 43,000 flying hours. When the 12 forced landings incidents were fully analysed, most were in flying schools and corrective measures had been in place for almost all of the 12 which had been implemented since 2011. There were no fatalities or serious injuries suffered as a result of the 12 forced landings.

Another interesting point is that the ATSB report showed that the Jabiru engine failure rate dropped after 2012 while the Rotax engine failure rate increased in the same period.

Which list are you referring to?

 

(a) The data obtained by CASA employees who visited RAA facilities and collected it?

 

(b) The list supplied by a person within RAA some months later, which contained items such as fuel exhaustions, which clearly were not engine failures, and was quoted publicly by the CASA Public Relations officer?

 

 

[FlyBoy1960]

I thought the best way to get validated information was to go to Jabiru's own website and have a look at aircraft for sale in the classified section. I went there about two years ago when I was thinking about buying an aircraft and I was genuinely surprised at how many advertisements that were saying Jabiru aircraft 600 hours, engine 250. This was over and over again!   There were never any advertisements that said Jabiru 1500 hours, engine 1500 hours. It just didn't happen.

 

I just went there again this morning to have another look to validate this comment but it now seems their website is infected by a Trojan and it will not allow you to visit (using the antivirus software installed on my computer) I don't suggest you go and visit just to validate what I'm saying in case you don't have decent anti-malware/antivirus software installed that is current and updated.

 

Perhaps, this is the same infection on their website that seems to infect the Jabiru engines ?  ?

 

 

 

[facthunter]

 The fact is that taking out the "not the engines fault" issues the  REAL failure rate was less than some  established older brands. Jabiru engines do have issues of overheating (which depends a lot on installation) Over propping and flywheel  retention issues. Following some carburetter leaning experiments some issues got worse.ie Overheating, exhaust valve problems, stud failures. Without going over the lot I believe the CASA figures were poorly collated and not  a reasonable basis of a proper investigation but a bad reaction to a need to appear to act … We had one board member with an absolute paranoia about the crankcase being machined from billet aluminium.  It was a pretty confused picture. SOME operators were getting consistent engines running to time.. The official Jabiru site had some good basic advice on maintenance and inspection. One, in particular, always make sure the top end is in good condition.  is GOOD advice... . A lot of detail could be brought up in this matter but it's unlikely to be  done without more confusion being added to the confusion already there..  A FULL investigation ??? Sure, but the damage is done. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

 Flyboy there's a good reason for that. Jabiru had a scheme where they would replace and update your engine cheaper than you could fix yours on an exchange basis. That is an example of a good scheme being later used as a reason not to go there. You are making an assumption those engines failed and HAD to be replaced. Nev

 

 

[kgwilson]

Turbo said.

 

Which list are you referring to?

 

(a) The data obtained by CASA employees who visited RAA facilities and collected it?

 

(b) The list supplied by a person within RAA some months later, which contained items such as fuel exhaustions, which clearly were not engine failures, and was quoted publicly by the CASA Public Relations officer?

 

It was reported on the Pro Aviation website at the time (28 November 2014) in an article entitled "Indecent Haste" written by Paul Phelan & stated that an unedited list had been obtained from RA-Aus.

 

 

[FlyBoy1960]

 Flyboy there's a good reason for that. Jabiru had a scheme where they would replace and update your engine cheaper than you could fix yours on an exchange basis. That is an example of a good scheme being later used as a reason not to go there. You are making an assumption those engines failed and HAD to be replaced. Nev

Why would you replace a perfectly good engine at 300 hours or 400 hours with a new engine ?   It should only just about be run in with these hours based on their published 2000 our TBO.

 

Their actual statistics (from the Jabiru classifieds section of their website) left me with no other option than to make an assumption that these engines HAD failed and HAD to be replaced.

 

If it was just a small issue it has to be cheaper to repair than it is to replace a whole complete engine ?    I am sorry Nev but I would expect an engine advertised with a 2000 hour TBO would go to at least what is advertised not only 20% of what is advertised.

 

These observations are as an outsider who does not own an aircraft and who has only completed basic training so I am not an expert on the subject I am just making observations from the Jabiru website. Excuse me if I have it all wrong

 

 

[facthunter]

TBO doesn't mean it will go there without some maintenance. Hardly any aircooled piston engine will go to TBO without some attention to the TOP of the engine. I did mention "updates" as modifications were being done  to the engine over time and having the engine worked on in-house makes the maintenance of a good standard possible. Also engines not used regularly suffer from degradation if they are not stored and inhibited when unused. You check your compressions for a reason.. . Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The early Jabiru engines did develop as operating experience grew. For example, head finning increased in area about 3 times.

 

Personally, I am and was happy to be part of this journey. You can buy 2 or 3 Jabiru engines for the price of a Rotax.

 

The latest alloy engine seems good, unfortunately the oldest one here was lost in a hangar fire but it seemed to be running well ( after a teething-trouble problem, to be accurate, but what's wrong with that? The defect was designed out once it was known)   

 

I could have replaced my whole engine at 200 hours and become one of those statistics, ( airframe 650 hours engine 450 hours )  but instead only replaced the 2 rear cylinder heads.  On the front, I bet I've got the oldest Jabiru cylinder heads in current use in the world.  Maybe if I was really  time-poor, I might have just replaced the whole engine at 200 hours. This would have been an expensive mistake , since the engine is running well at 650 hours and 16 years now.

 

 

[jetjr]

Plenty simply swap out engine at low leakdowns rather than spend similar on repairs. Theres special deals for flight schools for regular exchanges.

 

Replacement engines come with lots of new and upgraded parts and supposably some warranty

 

Jabiru engines are far from perfect but very cheap to repair and replace, comparative to other types, so comparing to them isnt relevant.

 

This expectation of reaching 1000 hrs (time for top end) without work isnt realistic

 

Also a “top end” overhaul includes  almost everything other than case and crank

 

A way to look at the issue is “early” or found in maintenence repairs. The reason many are swapped out. Rarely reported id guess.

 

 

[scre80]

Plenty simply swap out engine at low leakdowns rather than spend similar on repairs. Theres special deals for flight schools for regular exchanges.

Replacement engines come with lots of new and upgraded parts and supposably some warranty

 

Jabiru engines are far from perfect but very cheap to repair and replace, comparative to other types, so comparing to them isnt relevant.

 

This expectation of reaching 1000 hrs (time for top end) without work isnt realistic

 

Also a “top end” overhaul includes  almost everything other than case and crank

 

A way to look at the issue is “early” or found in maintenence repairs. The reason many are swapped out. Rarely reported id guess.

At our club, we have 2 x G3 engines coming up for 1000 TBO next year, both sitting around 900 hours. 1 has had nothing done to it besides normal servicing. The other one had an issue but was highly likely caused by someone not running the engine correctly. After some maintenance by our expert Lame, back online and will see out the 1000 hrs. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbo said.

Which list are you referring to?

 

(a) The data obtained by CASA employees who visited RAA facilities and collected it?

 

(b) The list supplied by a person within RAA some months later, which contained items such as fuel exhaustions, which clearly were not engine failures, and was quoted publicly by the CASA Public Relations officer?

 

It was reported on the Pro Aviation website at the time (28 November 2014) in an article entitled "Indecent Haste" written by Paul Phelan & stated that an unedited list had been obtained from RA-Aus.

That was the list referred to in the cat fight about the Instrument; the list was produced by someone within RAA, and used by the CASA spin doctor. If you cut 10 out of it to allow for fuel exhaustions, flat tyres etc. you'd have 30 for the period, which was exponentially above the levels of Continental and Lycoming for the same period. It was en emotive list and only a few people contacted the CASA SAO operations people to find out that CASA had sent two specialists to the RAA office some months before to go through the records and get their own statistics. It wasn't their fault that others screamed about the iniquity of the other list on this and other forums. 

 

I posted a list taken directly from the RAA magazines from February 2007 to March 2012 focusing only on reported forced landings/aircraft unable to take off again which showed 12 due to exhaust valve, 7 due Thru Bolt, 5 due seized/Con Rod/Catastrophic = 34. On top of those would have been Unreported, and incipient failures found during inspections, well above Continental/Lycoming.

 

During that same period, three Rotax 912 forced landings due to mechanical failure were reported. They were Circlip Oil Pressure, engine failure, no cause specified.

 

Later someone tried to colour the story by including small two strokes in the Rotax figures.

 

RA engines would not have an expectation of meeting the same TBO performance as Continental/Lycoming, but as people were starting to use them for GA application like cross country flights with passengers, an engine comparison started to become relevant.

 

Jabiru resolved the issue, as many car manufacturers have done, by designing a new engine, and that appears to have been a good move because we are not seeing reports of forced landings and engine failures.

 

While this may have blown the budgets of owners of the older model engine owners they could put a new Jabiru engine in and still achieve about the same cost as a new Rotax.

 

This thread should have been locked when the improved performance of Jabiru's new engine became apparent, and it's unfortunate that people have started talking about a situation which no longer exists; a bit like chatting about the Holden grey motor.

 

 

[jetjr]

Does the problem no longer exist? Some broad and uninformed opinions there.

 

The use of in flight engine failures as a statistical benchmark is so small that a change in weather for the year could influence it

 

Only a handful of the new engines exist and yet the reports of problems have slowed. 

 

Around 6900 of the old engines are out there, Id say largely still unmodified and therefore still under casa limitations if in AU

 

since when was Rotax an acceptable pricing benchmark?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Around 6900 of the old engines are out there, Id say largely still unmodified and therefore still under casa limitations if in AU

Brand me uninformed if you wish.

 

RAA report "almost 3500 aircraft" registered; says it all.

 

 

[coljones]

Brand me uninformed if you wish.

RAA report "almost 3500 aircraft" registered; says it all.

That might suggest that some Jab engines are OS in places like USA, South Africa and Denmark.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That might suggest that some Jab engines are OS in places like USA, South Africa and Denmark.

The "almost 3500" is all aircraft including rag and tube with two strokes, Rotax powered aircraft and a variety of others. 

 

 

[coljones]

The "almost 3500" is all aircraft including rag and tube with two strokes, Rotax powered aircraft and a variety of others. 

Almost 3500 would suggest that of the 6900 Jab engines quoted at least 3400 Jabiru engines are either overseas in places like USA, South Africa and Denmark or not in use.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Almost 3500 would suggest that of the 6900 Jab engines quoted at least 3400 Jabiru engines are either overseas in places like USA, South Africa and Denmark or not in use.

When I mentioned that the 3500 was ALL aircraft, that meant that there are substantially less than 3500 Jabirus registeredin Australia so your "overseas" quota goes up exponentially to illogical levels.

 

 

[coljones]

When I mentioned that the 3500 was ALL aircraft, that meant that there are substantially less than 3500 Jabirus registeredin Australia so your "overseas" quota goes up exponentially to illogical levels.

Just interpolating.  Do you have doubts about 6900 engines being produced, some of which were sent, and are still operational OS?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yeah, it is Christmas.

 

 

[coljones]

 

 

[jetjr]

My mistake 6500 not 7000.

 

They celebrated 6500th engine produced not that long ago I think

 

Why Jabiru? - Jabiru

 

JABIRU.NET.AU

 

Interesting they want the new cast case engine to be all "New" yet also consider it is the same as the older solid lifter versions for certification.

 

 

[Camel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saKPnSIu1iM

another jab failure. I find it hard to believe that anytime a jab engine fails it’s because of improper mx. 

I had a quick watch ! I never saw carb heat go on ! I never saw fuel pump go on ! I saw a quick response of communication ! I saw little effort to slow this aircraft on landing as the stick was going back and forward ! Please tell me if I saw this wrong and why !    

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

[ATTACH]38095[/ATTACH]

What does this map show, Col?  

 

 

[coljones]

What does this map show, Col?  

Jabiru-Locations.png Cheers