rankamateur Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 True . I appolagise, it does nobody any good to see this sort if thing. THe worst thing is the message gets lost in the crap. And for that I am truely sorry. This has been an example where the moderators have been napping, must be horrible for someone new to the forum, who doesn't know we are capable of better. 2
facthunter Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Start a new thread. BAD experience with moderators?. A policemans life is not a happy one (they say) Nev
turboplanner Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Haven't they removed 32 posts? You want a hanging?
facthunter Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Nothing to hang the wires on without posts. Nev 1
rankamateur Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 The slanging match just between oscar and motz went on un abated for two pages and a day and a half. I misread the 32 posts bit, thought it said that poster 32 had been sinbinned, seemed a bit rough.
rankamateur Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Start a new thread. BAD experience with moderators?. A policemans life is not a happy one (they say) Nev Not really necessary, the moderators have been allowed a lot more free dialogue of late, a bit less like primary school which it had become, which has been refreshing. We just have to not behave like we are in primary school to maintain the priveledge. 2 1
turboplanner Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 The slanging match just between oscar and motz went on un abated for two pages and a day and a half. I misread the 32 posts bit, thought it said that poster 32 had been sinbinned, seemed a bit rough. Unfortunately some have judged that to be a tit for tat fight rather than someone trying to correct biased information, which always seems to happen when this subject comes up. The forced landings record published in Pilot Notes speaks for itself. It's risking people's safety when people make these denial posts based on their own minimal experience, or aircraft at the same field. You can't draw conclusions unless you get the big picture and the biggest picture available at present is Pilot Notes, which of course should be named Accidents and Incidents. Similarly branding an experienced service technician as automatically biased because he is consistent in his criticism of issues he has seen is senseless when all the man tries to do is highlight the situation so it gets addressed. While I wouldn't have started this thread, it is more about one person's alleged unsatisfactory experience with a supplier, and that seems to have been lost on quite a few of the posters. 1 1
motzartmerv Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 The funny thing is, I dont believe I am biased towards jabiru's. I actually like the aeroplanes. I have one still online with my school. Ive had more than half a dozen online in various Schools and have Instructed for other schools that also have them online. So probably first hand operational (not private) experience on over a dozen jabs of various shapes and sizes. Ive made my (small ) living from them for the last 6 years. So I reckon I do have a unique 'data' base to draw from. That being said Im well aware of the short comings with the engines but more importantly the factory and the treatment they provide operators with. And without knocking or slanging, this is by far the most worrying aspect. I continue to recommend the aeroplanes to people, one of my mates bought one just before xmass, because they really are unbeatable when you consider bang for buck. So a real love hate relationship exists for me, and I believe Ive earned the right to form a reasonably accurate OVERALL opinion of the aeroplanes. My issues are, and continue to be, that I wont back down when challenged or called a Liar. I am very sorry for what transpired in this thread, and I will curtail my defensive posturing. I will also stop offering my opinion on jabiru's. It never helps and just gets people off side and cranky. I will continue to work through the system to help Jabiru produce a more reliable engine. Andy out. 7
turboplanner Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 I don't think you should be the one to be apologising Motz. 3
Kyle Communications Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 I don't think you should be the one to be apologising Motz. I agree 2
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Andy In general I agree with you. If I was buying all over again with what I know now I would have ponied up a few more $ at the beginning and gotten something with a Rotax. The J are inexpensive when compared to the opposition and when this is purely recreation and doesn't earn me a $ finding an extra $10 - 20k plus to go an alternative path is hard to justify. But....I've spent that extra $10k since then with less than 200hours to show for it and feel an additional $10k downtrack is hardly unlikely. I agree that J or Camit may very well end up with a better engine in time but that does nothing to help those that are sitting on an older engine that will likely need that extra spare $10k or more thrown at it to bring it back and that the restored position is still substandard because for many the benefits that camit might have are illegal for fitment to their LSA aircraft. I believe in recent times the J230 has gone from being an aircraft that 2nd hand went for mid to high $90k and now it seems that asking and getting $75k is a tough ask...clearly the market is more informed than they used to be and that pressure will be telling to J. I suspect they need to pick up their act or possibly not survive. Moving manufacturing capability to China in an attempt to reduce costs to me may very well do more damage than good....but only time will tell.... I like Bob hold concerns of their QA capability today with suppliers that are in the same town let alone overseas..... I personally don't want J to fail, as an owner, albeit 19 registered, that leaves me in an ugly place, but equally things have to improve. While statistically this survey data is likely flawed and hard to draw conclusions from it is clear to see that failure short of TBO is not exactly unheard of hey! Andy Andy
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 note: Not posted as a BM....... What really has happened here by the posts being eliminated, is that the moderator has allowed a relative newcomer who really doesn't know what he is talking about, sway him into effectively gagging a current board member into sharing communication and information, with members of this forum. This was going well until some wanker popped up and ruined it all. It will be to the loss of those on this forum unfortunately, in the future. It is obviously no lomger a free and open discussion forum as intended...................Maj....
ahlocks Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 The posts that were removed were the tit for tat slanging match with no relevance to the Jabiru issue being discussed Ross.
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 All part of a spirited discussion in my opinion Locks................Maj....
greybeard Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Doesn't a free and open discussion allow for a newcomer to communicate on a level playing field with other longer posting forum members? Opinion and knowledge doesn't just reside in those who talk more often. There is a message count alongside each forum members name so people who wish to judge forum content on post count can do so. I'm not condoning or making comment on posters comment, just that in my opinion post count should not be a prerequisite to how one is perceived or treated. Civility and robust debate should help the cause. my $0.022 ( inc GST ) 8
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Yes indeed it does Greybeard...............Maj.....
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 He's just got his arm up in the air Motz. 3
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Doesn't a free and open discussion allow for a newcomer to communicate on a level playing field with other longer posting forum members? Opinion and knowledge doesn't just reside in those who talk more often.There is a message count alongside each forum members name so people who wish to judge forum content on post count can do so. I'm not condoning or making comment on posters comment, just that in my opinion post count should not be a prerequisite to how one is perceived or treated. Civility and robust debate should help the cause. my $0.022 ( inc GST ) If the problem was that it was just a newcomer then, yes you are right. An academic forcing propaganda down our throats is a different story 1
ianboag Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 As a wise (r than me) person once wrote. "Arguing on the Net is like playing chess with a pigeon - eventually the pigeon will knock over the pieces, crap over everything and fly off to tell the other pigeons that it won". 1 3 1
Old Koreelah Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Agreed, Ian. I am so underwhelmed with how a discussion so quickly descends into personal insults. 1
greybeard Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 If the problem was that it was just a newcomer then, yes you are right.An academic forcing propaganda down our throats is a different story Then just argue the point and don't distract from the value of the discussion by implying that the duration of membership has anything to do with it. Same as suggesting that an academic has anything to do with the point. It might be an academic argument or an academic point but it's attacking against the person and not the point being argued. We've most likely all argued 'the man' rather than 'attacked the ball' at times but it's 'attacking the ball' that achieves the result. Which is exactly the point behind what I saw in the moderation of the posts. upto $0.044 ( inc gst ) now 1 5
Riley Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 As a wise (r than me) person once wrote."Arguing on the Net is like playing chess with a pigeon - eventually the pigeon will knock over the pieces, crap over everything and fly off to tell the other pigeons that it won". Loved it Ian. Is it copyright or can I repeat when appropriate? cheers Riley
ianboag Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Loved it Ian. Is it copyright or can I repeat when appropriate? cheers Riley You'll find a bit more background at http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/pigeonchess.asp. Feel free .... 1
Craig_J Posted September 18, 2014 Posted September 18, 2014 As a newcomer here to educate myself on the J230D, I'm posting this not to resurrect the slanging match as it's been called, but rather to post what I gather from having read the entire thread and to express appreciation for info contained herein. What I gather about the Jabiru 3300: - Requires meticulous attention to CHT and strict adherance to operating practices that manage them (cht's), i.e. climb @ no less than 90kt - Is not a mature engine design and improvements are needed - 13.2 Update History Table of the overhaul manual (25 June 2014 rev) indicates head design is evolving in attempt to address CHT (fine fin heads, etc) Things such as Rotec Aerosport's liquid cooled heads at first sound like a "no-brainer" but then you're adding complexity (coolant pump) and weight. And of course that could only be done if aircraft is moved into the experimental category at which point you become your own warranty as well as your own liability insurance. My question might be, what is thought by those who have posted here, of the state of the 3300's coming out of Bundaberg right now, serial numbers above #2539 with all the updates to the head design and with the roller lifters and cam, etc. I realize that these engines may not have been in the field long enough to form opinions as to whether some of the purported reliability issues have been successfully addressed, but I have to ask anyhow as I am, at this time, in the factory new market not pre-owned. Short version: Are brand new 3300's likely to be less prone to the overheat problems discussed in this thread?
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