Bad Experience with Jabiru

[AVOCET]

I also had concerns about my jab engine , i talked to ian bent , and asked him if i needed to upgrade ,

 

His answer was if its going ok , leave it alone. , doesnt take much bad press to spook ( sometimes unnessesary) any prospective buyers.

 

Ive had several jabs over the years 4 & 6 cyl , and have had no issues that seem to get front page here.

 

Pm me if youd like to talk ,

 

And iknow of a couple of good examples for sale .

 

Cheers mike sharples

 

 

[01rmb]

The Jabiru is a great aircraft. The engine works well but has quite fine tolerances that can cause problems if they are exceeded.

 

Exhaust valves, through bolts and piston rings seem to have the biggest problems possibly related to heat/cooling, oil contamination and fuel related causes. Proper maintenance, vigilance and servicing seems to be the key to prevent or pick up most of these problems. Some people have no problems, some have a few problems and a few have lots of problems.

 

It would be great if there were no problems whatsoever but everything is made to fit within a set of compromises of price, weight and reliability. I believe that a few key things go a long way to avoiding the majority of problems. With better investigation of the actual cause of the problems somebody may even be able to prove it.

 

 

[jetboy]

Is it just me or are the maintenance instructions screwed (as always)

 

I mean there is a new JSB18-3 on the website which cancels all previous carb tuning instructions and refers to the current maintenance and current overhaul instructions, which I just downloaded and read the whole way thru - and it seems to say the carb tuning instructions of JSB18 are to be followed

 

Who dreams up this stuff?

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

I have been using jab motors now for 10 years and I don't have any conplants nor have i had any failers. I didn't follow the installation manual as i feel it will make your motor run hot. we use our own set up and the motors run very cool. For me they are the best motor around and you can afford the parts if needed. All motors have there own problems,

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I have been using jab motors now for 10 years and I don't have any conplaints nor have i had any failures. I didn't follow the installation manual as I feel it will make your motor run hot.

So "no complaints" except for the complaint, got it. Maybe you could share what your "anti-motor run hot" procedure is please?

 

I know one guy who extracts the engine bay air from directly behind the Jab engine rather than a torturous exit path in an aim to help cooling for example.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...I know one guy who extracts the engine bay air from directly behind the Jab engine rather than a torturous exit path in an aim to help cooling for example.

It's easy with a low-wing; exit in the low-pressure area above the wing LE.

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

It's easy with a low-wing; exit in the low-pressure area above the wing LE.

Was a high wing but similar idea.

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

Most of the problems are they just running to hot, I have used my own set up for the last 10 years. I looked at the instal manual and put it in the bin. If you follow the manual your motor will run hot .You have to get the air running smoothly through the system. The piece of fibreglass sitting in front of the cylinder blocking the air from getting to the bottom of the cylinder is just one of the problems, this will brake the air and cause turbulence, this will slow the air flow. We make our own front piece of duct and ramp the air into the duct. the smother the air flow the more air you will get over the motor.We put the oil cooler at the bottom of the fire wall. You still need a 2-3"hole at the top of the sump, this makes 20 deg. difference. The oil cooler robes air that could be used to go over the cylinder heads . now you have lots of air going much faster, lots more cooling. The carb air intack we use our own cobra head with a air straightener to even up the cylinder temperature, and you can move the rear of the straightneer to change left and right bank of cyl temp. also lowering the bottom of the cowl makes more suction. so there you have it its not hard. Bingle book on fire wall forward is a good book on how to do this also. no one using our set up has had an engine problem so far .

 

 

[geoffreywh]

all the 24 - reg types will look at that installation with envy..................

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Most of the problems are they just running to hot,..........

Thanks for taking the time Garry.

 

 

[dmech]

Ladies and gents, I would like to share my experience thus far with this product and the factory that makes them.I own 2 Jabirus, a 230-D and a 160-C both aircraft have been an absolute nightmare when it comes to reliability.

The J230 suffered its first engine failure at 225 hours requiring a complete Top end, subsequently it suffered multiple component failures up until its final demise at 700 hrs with Jabiru admitting it was the failed thru bolt design that destroyed the bottom end and not once did they offer any support even after requests.

 

The J160 suffered an in flight engine failure under 200 hours since the factory performed a top end overhaul( thru bolt failure)! since I have owned it three heads have failed due cracking and valve seat movement multiple other component failures and the nail in the coffin for this engine was a valve seat falling out at idle on the first pre-flight run up of the day all within 300 hrs of the Top end overhaul.

 

The factory have not once offered to help, never shown the slightest empathy or a desire to support a customer, and display a complete disregard for factual evidence when providing an excuse why a component failed.

 

I have been bullied, ignored and treated like a fool.

 

Not one Jabiru engine in my local area has made the 1000 hr TBO and not one owner would purchase another Jabiru.

 

The business manager has treated me with arrogance of the highest order and display's what I can only describe as an extremely deceptive nature.

 

The business manager flat out refuses to return my property, and will not listen to any reason or evidentiary facts stating that they must return it.

 

One investigation conducted by the company as to why a cylinder dropped a valve seat and had cracking, had three different conclusions over multiple days.

 

I regret the day that I purchased both of these aircraft, they have cost me a small fortune to keep running and I warn others to do their home work thoroughly before spending your money with them.

Hi deadstick would be interested to know your experience's with thru bolt issues , in particular , which side and whether top or bottom on each side ie oil filter side or dipstick side

A.D.

 

 

[deadstick]

Hi deadstick would be interested to know your experience's with thru bolt issues , in particular , which side and whether top or bottom on each side ie oil filter side or dipstick sideA.D.

Only ever snapped one on the j160, it was number 2 cyl upper fwd and upper rear bolts that snapped. Of note this engine had the shims under the base of the barrels with goop on both sides, not a great setup.

 

 

[dmech]

Only ever snapped one on the j160, it was number 2 cyl upper fwd and upper rear bolts that snapped. Of note this engine had the shims under the base of the barrels with goop on both sides, not a great setup.

Thank's deadstick , would like to hear from other jab owners ,re bolts. Had a few replies so far involving 11 bolts , seems to be a pattern emerging , all bolts on filter side are upper bolts and other side are lower bolts, I think I know whats doing this but more data would be helpful

Thank's

 

A.D.

 

 

[Keith Page]

The Jab engine issue...Two little gems have come my way..

 

This is regarding engine failures.

 

First one:- (A complete engine Failure).The engine was pulled down at the Jab factory and the disassemble was witnessed by an insurance company as it was an insurance claim.. Reason for engine failure "Automotive Oil" the oils was sent to shell to confirm what it was.

 

Second one:- Was being operated in excess of two years without the required engine mod being done. This was after official paper work being issued.

 

We have to be a bit fair in this situation, because I have seen a broken Cat D11r and they are tough so what hope has an aero engine.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Keith,

 

Please enlighten me with the number two engine mod requirement.

 

Thanks.

 

Phil

 

 

[Keith Page]

Sorry Phil --

 

I did not go into detail of which mod was involved I only took the two year bit on board, I was so gob smacked with the automotive oil issue, was busy gleaning the rest of the issue and wonder what else people do to Jab engines. Simply frightening.

 

With GA the aircraft they are actually maintained by LAMES and getting away from the hobbyist.

 

I can remember what some of the 5 minute experts did to their cars and a lot of their brain waves when against engineering principals. Now those people are older and are experts on aero engines.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[deadstick]

Hi Keith, what was the cause of the complete failure?

 

 

[Keith Page]

deadstick

 

Give me a bit of time...Will get back to you on that one, will ask the question.

 

KP.

 

 

[Oscar]

Keith: - could the second failure be the same as the one reported in Post #22 of: http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/532232-jabiru-bad-experience-2.html ?

 

 

[deadstick]

Hi Oscar, no that one was my J160, different circumstances.

 

 

[Oscar]

Ah, ok. Some of the 'failures' listed by CASA in their infamous list are quite evidently wrong ( e.g. the Runcorn incident) and just about all of them lack decent details from which to conclude any actual reason for the engine stoppage. When Keith tracks down the info, it may again reduce the number that can be taken as 'demonstrably' a problem to be sheeted home to Jabiru, and that number is by any reasonably objective analysis of the reporting, well less than half of what CASA spruiked.

 

 

[deadstick]

Yeah I'm suspicious also, especially when they describe a clear cut fuel starvation incident as an engine failure!

 

 

[Oscar]

It was most unlikely that Truss's comments about getting rid of 'pushback' by CASA against the Forsyth Report recommendations at Ausfly was coincidental.... ( for more background on just how far CASA has gone with negating decent reform over the years, read the Paul Phelan articles in Pro Aviation).

 

Examination of the whole Jab. engine issue handling by CASA will - eventually - reveal more dirty business than cleaning a sullage pond, right back to what kicked off them looking at Jabs in the first place. While I have consistently maintained that Jabiru certainly has things for which it must answer and make a genuine and effective response, Rod Stiff is not going to be the only villain in the piece that led to the restrictions.

 

 

[deadstick]

Yeah I was hoping to have a chat with the minister and Mark skidmore but didn't eventuate. I hope the ministers comments weren't just hot air. I listened to Jabiru's lecture and heard some good positive stuff and some bad. It was great to speak with Ian and Jenny bent and see their power plant and products in the flesh.

 

 

[Oscar]

There's more news to come from CAMit, which I believe will clarify the situation regarding how much of the CAMit engines will have 'carry-over' from the Jab. design features. I confidently expect there will be some cheering from Jab. engine owners when they hear about these; with the benefit of many years of experience of building, researching problems and developing solutions to those problems based on a 'system' approach - by which I mean looking at the whole chain of how the engine works and reacts to 'out-of-condition' situations - I believe Ian Bent has effectively used his experience of manufacturing thousands of engines to underpin an in-depth research and development programme.

 

With all due respect to the work that has been done by UL Power and D-motor - to name what I believe are the two leading contenders for 'new' engines in the ultralight market area - there is nothing like a body of experience gained from many, many thousands of hours of real-life use of an engine to validate design concepts. We know of 'duds' from all of the major manufacturers: Lycoming, Continental, Rotax that demonstrate that even with great experience, sometimes 'bright ideas' don't work out in real life. To me, that says that incremental advances to a basically working device have a likely better future, even if it's not a 'breakthrough' new concept. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is a known danger....

 

The action by CASA very nearly bought CAMit down, as collateral damage of the restrictions. Had that happened, engines and parts for engines for what is generally regarded as amongst the best airframes in the entire ultralight world would have ceased to be manufactured. If anybody thinks that Jabiru could have switched to another manufacturer for its engines and engine parts either quickly or effectively - 'you're dreaming'. Jabiru's 'Chinese' engine is simply not ready for use as other than an experimental engine (their information, not my conjecture). Exit Stage Right, 60% of the training/hire fleet in Australia.

 

CASA's action, stimulated by the vociferous outpourings on social media (including this forum) of a few obsessed individuals with axes to grind, has already bought the production of both airframes and engines on a scale never seen in this country almost to a halt. That would NOT have happened had CASA adopted - rather than repudiated - the recommendations of the Forsyth Review report BEFORE embarking on the attack on Jabiru for consultation with the Industry, transparency, and proper research. Now, certain CASA personnel are out there checking the status of the lifeboats and making damn sure that they reduce their own liability for what they did by throwing the information delivered to them by certain complainants out to those challenging their actions.

 

When it all comes out, it will not be a pretty story.