Steering on final with rudder

[Yenn]

It is time that either training was improved or taildraggers should be used for training. from the comments here it is obvious a lot of people become pilots without having much idea of what the rudder is for.

 

A friend of mine did a go around the other day because he was encountering too much lift on finals. When I asked if it was possible to ideslip his plane, he said it was but he wasn't proficient at it. A good outcome to go round, but he will be practicing sideslips sometime soon. He built the plane himself and is doing the test flying, so it is not legal for anyone to indtruct him in that plane. Apart from not being proficient with side slips he is a very good pilot, so I see no problem with him test flying, especially with his plane being well sorted out and many models flying safely.

 

 

[Guernsey]

I had to fly my L4 Piper Cub from the rear seat so a fast taxi with the tail up was very useful from a forward vision perspective but only when safe to do so and definitely not on a taxiway. It was a lot of fun also.

 

Alan.

 

 

 

[metalman]

Or you can do a TW endorsement, nothing else will really teach you what those pedals are really for, simply, because it becomes extremely critical to get it right. The school I did the endorsement with had me lifting the tail and running down the strip without letting it lift off, you learn really fast ,Matty

A bit odd replying to my own post ,but I wanted to add that you can't do the fast taxi practice in a tricycle geared plane, hence the tail dragger is a good teacher,,,,it'll also teach you to say f**k,s**t and bugger a lot ,

Matty

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

When I was learning my instructor used to make me practice with the rudder by getting at the end of the strip you accellerate the aircraft until the nosewheel is off the ground well under flying speed though you hold enough revs on to maintain this attitude and you run the whole length of the runway keeping the aircraft straight. A few runs up and down certainly gets the feet moving and really helps with the feel of the control....I still do it now to maintain the skill....would be good training for a TW endorsement the aircraft is pretty twitchy so you have to be on the ball when doing it

 

 

[turboplanner]

I can feel some ground loops coming on.................

 

 

[Keenaviator]

When I was learning my instructor used to make me practice with the rudder by getting at the end of the strip you accellerate the aircraft until the nosewheel is off the ground well under flying speed though you hold enough revs on to maintain this attitude and you run the whole length of the runway keeping the aircraft straight. A few runs up and down certainly gets the feet moving and really helps with the feel of the control....I still do it now to maintain the skill....would be good training for a TW endorsement the aircraft is pretty twitchy so you have to be on the ball when doing it

Not really great practise since the c of g is still ahead of the mains on a tricycle undercarriage whether or not the nose wheel is off the ground where on a tail dragger the c of g is behind the mains; that is what makes things interesting. Laurie

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

When your not flying learn how to play hakky sack. Get those motor skills happening

 

Its a long way from the brain to the feet.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Not really great practise since the c of g is still ahead of the mains on a tricycle undercarriage whether or not the nose wheel is off the ground where on a tail dragger the c of g is behind the mains; that is what makes things interesting. Laurie

Try it keen aviator you might be very surprised how difficult it is. The main wheels are a long way back from where a taildraggers are and the aircraft is VERY squirrely it takes a deft touch as the nose sits quite high and you have to keep the power just enough to make sure you are not near any flying speed.

 

 

[SDQDI]

When your not flying learn how to play hakky sack. Get those motor skills happeningIts a long way from the brain to the feet.

That's not what my dad tells me he says my brains are all in my big toe:dizzy: or was it my little toe? I wish I wood reemeber these things when I'm teached them.

 

 

[DrZoos]

When I was learning my instructor used to make me practice with the rudder by getting at the end of the strip you accellerate the aircraft until the nosewheel is off the ground well under flying speed though you hold enough revs on to maintain this attitude and you run the whole length of the runway keeping the aircraft straight. A few runs up and down certainly gets the feet moving and really helps with the feel of the control....I still do it now to maintain the skill....would be good training for a TW endorsement the aircraft is pretty twitchy so you have to be on the ball when doing it

Thats an excellent way to do it. You obviously have a great instructor that can break down and isolate the skill so it can be practiced for duration and in isolation away from the "over stimulus" of the landing (for a beginning srtudent in early phase ). Big thumbs up for that instructor / school.

 

 

[M61A1]

A bit of high speed taxying with the tail off the ground in a tailwheel plane will teach you what the rudder does.Normally it's a balance control unless you are kicking it straight on landing or things like a crosswind taking off or taxying or a deliberate sideslip.. Some people flying a tricycle U/C plane will hardly use the rudder. If your plane has aileron drag you should lead slightly with the rudder entering a turn ( as you roll the aileron ON) and coming out of a turn likewise. You certainly use it positively on a twin ( or more ) engined plane when you lose a motor. Nev

I got sick of paying my instructor to fly the aircraft for those 5-10 critical seconds every circuit, so I went and built a taildragger trainer out a bit of steel tube and bike wheels, a Victa with a prop and an old plastic chair.

I drove that around the paddock for 1/2 hr a day for a week or so, to the point where I could actually drift it and maintain control.

 

It must have worked......my instructor was a little bewildered at the difference.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

When we were teaching using Drifters the students had to get their feet working instinctively right from the outset as the fences were quite close to some of the runways we used.

 

Consequently, as others have mentioned, some of the earliest serious training was conducted in the early mornings or calm evenings running up and down the strips with the tail up.

 

We took it a stage further than that though, as soon as the student was fully proficient with the tail up we then had them running up and down the strip on one wheel. Once they could do that in calm conditions and keep the wingtip steady at 4-500mm from the ground and be able to swap quickly from one wheel to the other they would be pretty well bullet-proof in cross-winds.

 

Dazza38 could tell you about it from a student's perspective, he learned with us that way.

 

Here's Wayne Fisher demonstrating -

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

I was going to say I carried a spotlight and .222 on mine and used it to go after foxes, but that was a great way to teach yourself foot modulation M.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

The good old days had their merits. Those that learnt the self taught we usually were the better skilled in the end.

 

Search youtube for some early training when it was done in C140 and such.First lessons were just taxying around the airport.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

When your not flying learn how to play hakky sack. Get those motor skills happeningIts a long way from the brain to the feet.

...especially with mine! Add that to the time lags of ageing. No wonder I wander all over the place!

 

 

[M61A1]

I was going to say I carried a spotlight and .222 on mine and used it to go after foxes, but that was a great way to teach yourself foot modulation M.

An acquaintance of mine had a poster size photo on his wall, with the front seater carrying a Franchi SPAS12, for goat hunting, it was captioned something along the lines of "tell me about my attitude, one more time".

 

 

[dazza 38]

When we were teaching using Drifters the students had to get their feet working instinctively right from the outset as the fences were quite close to some of the runways we used.Consequently, as others have mentioned, some of the earliest serious training was conducted in the early mornings or calm evenings running up and down the strips with the tail up.

 

We took it a stage further than that though, as soon as the student was fully proficient with the tail up we then had them running up and down the strip on one wheel. Once they could do that in calm conditions and keep the wingtip steady at 4-500mm from the ground and be able to swap quickly from one wheel to the other they would be pretty well bullet-proof in cross-winds.

 

Dazza38 could tell you about it from a student's perspective, he learned with us that way.

 

Here's Wayne Fisher demonstrating -

 

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Yup it was great

 

 

[metalman]

Back to using rudder on final, when I was up home and flying the ibis gs700 you had to use rudder to pick up a wing as the ailerons drooped with the flaps and you lost a bit of travel in them, learning to instinctively pick up a wing drop with rudder is a critical skill that might just save ya bacon one day,,,,,

 

Matty

 

 

[alf jessup]

What about those with tail wheels?Regards

Keith Page

Keith, they are there for them to turn back around in the direction they were originally going after they ground loop.

 

Alf

 

 

[Tomo]

I'm no instructor: But...

 

I would encourage people or instructors to get students well and truly comfortable with rudder/aileron control in the air (e.i. not in the landing phase) by doing many different exercises. You can only tell someone so much about how to control a machine, the rest they have to find out themselves by trial an error/instructor patter/and demonstration.

 

Tail wheel aircraft are good as you have to start as soon as you start taxiing, and most of them are spring actuated which requires more finesse than direct rudder pedal to wheel connections..

 

Everyone learns differently as well - some want to be told how much/when should I?/tell me, tell me! Some rather figure it out themselves and hate being corrected all the time. Others learn by example. etc... et

 

But regardless there comes a time when you need the person to 'figure' it themselves regardless. That's when the teachers job is to encourage independence.. but I think there has to be a fine line to how much, don't let the student get to 'snowed' under that they lose focus altogether. You are stretching them slowly into a new skill.

 

Anyway I've gone off on a tangent again... moral of the story - how much rudder do you use on final? I think that question is very similar to someone asking how much should the steering wheel of a car be turned for a left turn... just put that nose where you want it! BUT, the key word is understanding, you can tell someone something till you're blue in the face, but if they don't understand what you're talking about they won't get it.

 

I love doing this: pick a point, wave the wings left/right while keeping that nose on the point with rudders - try it at different speeds

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Be a real pilot! Learn on no brakes, non lockable non steerable tailwheel.

 

Sorts out the wannabe from the canbe.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Or you could disregard the confusion of this thread, and simply let your instructor teach you how to fly.

 

 

[Yenn]

Turbo. Are they doing that? From what is written in this thread it seems some aren't getting taught, or they are not remembering it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbo. Are they doing that? From what is written in this thread it seems some aren't getting taught, or they are not remembering it.

I nearly didn't make that post but decided it was safer than some of the advice so far, particularly since it was "flying technique by correspondence"

Given that this subject was reported to have been a debate on the instructors forum - you might question what half of them teach, and given some of the posts above you may well be right.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

OK it's been driving me crazy. A thread with this heading has been on and off the instructors forum for weeks. What is the secret that the instructors are keeping to themselves? What pearl of wisdom would make my landings more predictable and professional? What are those two pedals for anyway?

Go gliding. The adverse aileron yaw is something fierce, so feet are always in use. When thermalling, the inner wing is always on the point of stall, so you are dancing between keeping it co-ordinated, and picking up the inner wing with a dab of rudder. After that, 3-pointing Thrusters was a piece of pxxx...