Steering on final with rudder

[dutchroll]

Something I forgot to add:

 

With the sideslip crosswind approach & landing, people get all sexed up about "how much rudder do I use?" and "how much bank angle do I have?" and "how unbalanced do I have to be?"

 

The answer is simple.

 

1. You use enough rudder to align the aircraft heading straight down the runway.

 

2. You use enough into wind aileron/angle of bank to stop the aircraft drifting across the centreline as a consequence of the rudder you just put in.

 

Whatever sideslip that gives you at the time, well that's what you need! Make *small* adjustments early, not *big* adjustments later or you'll end up de-stabilising yourself. Continue to monitor your speed and approach path, which are controlled in the normal way.

 

 

[kasper]

I don't count weightshifters as "aircraft", but rather "loose assemblies of tubes and rags which get blown about by the wind".

I'll take your definition and say a weightshift is the ONLY light aircraft I have ever landed without breaking a sweat in 40mph+ winds ... Calais, Bleriot reenactment flight in 2009 ... fortunately straight down the runway ... was 'fun' using power on the ground to stop being blown backwards down the runway ... but a sweat did appear when turning off the runway and had to hold the wing across a howling gale.

Loved seeing 120knts+ ground speed on downwind ... but the final was a long time at under 10knts with a landing roll of nothing

 

 

[Oscar]

Something I forgot to add:With the sideslip crosswind approach & landing, people get all sexed up about "how much rudder do I use?" and "how much bank angle do I have?" and "how unbalanced do I have to be?"

 

The answer is simple.

 

1. You use enough rudder to align the aircraft heading straight down the runway.

 

2. You use enough into wind aileron/angle of bank to stop the aircraft drifting across the centreline as a consequence of the rudder you just put in.

 

Whatever sideslip that gives you at the time, well that's what you need! Make *small* adjustments early, not *big* adjustments later or you'll end up de-stabilising yourself. Continue to monitor your speed and approach path, which are controlled in the normal way.

DR: I've been following this thread with interest, and the more analysis there has been, the more I am starting to question my ( long-time ago) glider experience - I reiterate I do not have enough power experience to make a cogent comment (though my logbook shows 'crosswind landing practice' for my first batch of circuits but there wouldn't have been more than 10 kts for any of those). Perhaps I have to completely forget what I did in gliders, but your explanation seems to be a closer fit than most others here, so maybe you can help me sort it out!

 

What I used to do (and this was mostly ingrained at Polo Flat, where getting too low on the circuit was an absolute no-no) was to set up early on downwind ( at the FUST check) for circuit speed and fly level-wings and centre-rudder parallel with the strip and watch the drift to get a 'feeling' for the wind speed. Get the aiming point firmly in mind and steer to keep the 'angle of depression' in the right place whilst also keeping the distance of the base leg sensible: close if being blown away from the strip, further if being blown towards it.

 

Base turn was made with reference to ONLY the aiming point with due allowance for the prevailing wind - we never used any ground feature per se as the trigger point. Final turn to arrive at the strip centre-line allowing for wind.

 

Once on final, I used to set up a sideslip - even in still conditions - establish it so the flight path was down the centreline, and generally use sideslip moderation to keep the aiming point constant; with perhaps a small amount of airbrake if I needed extra drag to keep the speed reasonable. The aircraft was frequently considerably yawed relative to the flight path: is this what you mean by 'align the aircraft heading straight down the runway??' I ask, because I was almost always looking at the aiming point well off the nose..

 

At the round-out, kick the thing straight ahead with just a smidgeon of wing droop in the direction of the cross-wind ( glider wings are LONG and close to the ground..), then pull lots of airbrake until just above touch-down, then ease it in until the wheel is on the deck, then pull it out again to plant the bugger firmly. Then put it away ( and the flaps away, if necessary) to taxi to the stopping point. Glider control authority is pretty strong, for most gliders anyway, so this may well NOT be a viable technique for aircraft with marginal control authority.

 

For some reason - and perhaps I am weird - I always felt that the aircraft was more 'stable' in a sideslip, with the combination of pressure on both the stick and the rudder pedals providing a tactile feedback that meant I could correct for changes in the outside airmass before I could see them, let alone have to watch the instruments. Basically, from the base turn onwards, I rarely took my eyes off the aiming point.

 

I have to admit - my power flying arrivals have not been to my liking, so far. That may just be the rust of nearly three decades away, but I'd appreciate your opinion on whether I should forget what I used to know and learn to fly powered aircraft anew, or persevere and adapt what I learned...

 

 

[dutchroll]

My gliding experience is limited to single digit hours and a solo flight, but I don't ever recall being taught to sideslip it in still-air conditions on final.

 

Let's talk still-air. Not a puff of breeze, in a powered aircraft. The only reason you should be in a sideslip under normal circumstances is if you're in a taildragger or fat-engined aircraft and you need to do that to see your aimpoint. This is common, for example, in Pitts type aircraft and some warbirds.

 

If you reckon on a normal final approach that you need sideslip for a glidepath adjustment which can't be managed with pitch and power alone, I suggest you're way too high and it's time to go around and give it another shot.

 

Let's add some crosswind. Ok, if it's the appropriate technique for your aircraft type, you're going to need to establish a sideslip in order to conduct your crosswind landing as described in my previous post. You would establish this sideslip once you've got your final approach track and glidepath pretty well sorted. If you go and launch into your sideslip but you've rolled out too high or low and not tracking the centreline, well you're just going to screw yourself over with having to make big adjustments while also cross-controlling. Why make life hard for yourself?

 

The aircraft was frequently considerably yawed relative to the flight path: is this what you mean by 'align the aircraft heading straight down the runway??' I ask, because I was almost always looking at the aiming point well off the nose.

It means your nose is just pointing straight down the runway, but you're tracking along the extended centreline too. To achieve that with a crosswind blowing, you must be established in a sideslip. If your nose is pointing somewhere else other than in line with your aimpoint, and you've also got a bunch of cross-control in (rudder and aileron), then you are doing a combo of both (again, disclaimer: in some aircraft you have to do that to actually see your aimpoint!).

 

At the round-out, kick the thing straight ahead with just a smidgeon of wing droop in the direction of the cross-wind ( glider wings are LONG and close to the ground..)

"Technically" in a crabbed approach you shouldn't need to drop the wing into wind during the flare, although clearly you need some aileron to stop the wing rise as you yaw/kick it straight (don't get me talking about the Airbus here.....that'll open a can of worms!). Practically, because getting the timing right is hard to do, you often do drop the wing a little to stop yourself drifting across the runway. During those last few seconds you are relying on the inertia of the aircraft which you've had beautifully tracking the centreline , continuing to do that while you're kicking it straight and getting the wheels on the ground in a wings level attitude.

 

Basically, from the base turn onwards, I rarely took my eyes off the aiming point.

Excellent. You are streaks ahead of some others in that part of your flying then! Occasional airspeed checks but largely concentrating on the aimpoint is what you should be doing.

 

.........I'd appreciate your opinion on whether I should forget what I used to know and learn to fly powered aircraft anew, or persevere and adapt what I learned...

It doesn't sound like you need to learn anew. Just sounds like you need to use one technique or the other for crosswinds, not a hybrid. With zero crosswind, there's no requirement to use either. Just normal, balanced flight is the go! (Remember my exceptions at the top, primarily involving planes you can't see out the front of!).

 

 

[Oscar]

DR - thanks. Yes, we used to enter final high at Polo Flat, to preserve inertia. Going around was not an option.

 

 

[Guest gannett]

Sometimes you just cannot touch down both mains at once...Go practice crosswind landings gannett.

Then get back to us how that instructors teaching worked out for you?

 

Hopefully its just a very mild ground loop and no damage is done....just a little bit embarrassing is all.

I can crosswind as good as anyone. I don't think i said you have to touch down on both wheels but forgive me for having an opinion, you are obviously an expert in everything you do.

 

 

[Yenn]

Why would you go around because you are so high that you need to slip to get into the field. If you can get in by slipping by all means do so, there will never be any fear of undershooting if the engine stops. I am nearly always what could be considered too high and I don't have flaps, so side slipping is the way of life for me on finals.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Because you're generating high sink rates at low or idle power settings and low airspeed close to the ground.

 

Half of all general aviation accidents occur during landing. Even AOPA extols the virtue of stabilised approaches in general aviation flying and have done for several decades.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I can crosswind as good as anyone. I don't think i said you have to touch down on both wheels but forgive me for having an opinion, you are obviously an expert in everything you do.

Sometimes people make assumptions about someone else's level of experience and knowledge and sometimes things said on a list like this are misinterpreted so we all need to make allowances and maintain civil conversations if the broadest contributions are to be shared and enjoyed.

 

I noted in an earlier post that Kamloops has 26,500 hours in his logbook so I'm interested in what he has to say and would prefer there weren't ad hominem attacks which might deter this. I also noted his very appropriate apology to DJP when the latter drew attention to the situation pertaining to a particular inverted stall as compared to an upright one. I think it's a good lead to follow.

 

Kaz

 

 

[pmccarthy]

The side slip definitely gives better control. Without it, the rudder and ailerons have to deflect a certain amount before they have any effect, so they can be working from side to side constantly But they need to be loaded up so they become sensitive. So side slip even if the wind is straight ahead for best precise control.

 

 

[dutchroll]

The side slip definitely gives better control. Without it, the rudder and ailerons have to deflect a certain amount before they have any effect, so they can be working from side to side constantly But they need to be loaded up so they become sensitive. So side slip even if the wind is straight ahead for best precise control.

Have you ever heard a test pilot advocating the use of sideslip on all approaches for more precise aircraft control?

There is a reason for that.

 

 

[djpacro]

I noted in an earlier post that Kamloops ... also noted his very appropriate apology to DJP when the latter drew attention to the situation pertaining to a particular inverted stall as compared to an upright one. I think it's a good lead to follow.

Good Kaz although Kamloops didn't need to apologise in that situation - he was just going down a particular track with the discussion and I suddenly turned it on its head.Incidentally, the situation that I described was not an inverted stall although we were inverted at the time i.e. we had a positive angle of attack.

 

 

[facthunter]

A sideslip is a way of getting rid of surplus height that is particularly suited to aircraft without flaps. Done properly it can be done to the flare or in a turn to final as a slipping turn which is variable in it's sink rate. Sitting high in a circuit gives a safety margin and is suitable for compact circuits. I don't expect to see airliner s doing it as they have very effective flaps. Getting in over a line of trees in a situation where you have only a short runway length, it's the go. Very useful in a forced landing situation.. Lets you put the plane exactly where you want it at the correct speed. having extra height and being able to get rid rapidly of it is a safe situation. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

I own an aircraft without flaps, I might point out.

 

I'm not arguing that sideslipping shouldn't be taught, nor that it shouldn't be used. It is not used as a "normal" approach procedure. And if you're not happy in the circuit and want a safety margin, fly a tight circuit, not a high one. Or don't fly.

 

Jeezus......we now have people saying it should be par for the course on every approach! Reinventing 100 years of aviation training. You heard it right here.

 

 

[dutchroll]

[Kamloops]

Gannett in post number 388 in this thread you said it.

 

I went back and reread it to make sure.

 

 

[facthunter]

You are over re acting, Dutch. Some people fly from small aerodromes, and I said compact circuits. It's well qualified if you actually read it. I'm presuming you are responding to my post. I looked for others that you might be referring to. Circuit heights are specified and I don't suggest anything outside the rules, but I never go for big circuits unless someone is in the way.. You can be high at 200 feet of course, and you do something about it if the strip is short..Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

Blimey, I didn't mean to start a war here... and I WAS talking about habits learned when flying gliders, which are very tricky to put the power on and go around again in. The standard circuit for 36 established downwind over the old wool sheds - about 300 metres off to the right of the runway, so base leg wasn't exactly long. Obviously I have had to re-calibrate my circuits for things with a noise out the front, but I still have a distinct preference for final legs that do not require breaking out the sandwiches and coffee to complete.

 

 

[Kamloops]

In a perfect world we would all have speed brakes on our planes....but the world is not perfect.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I cant believe the pontificating and pissing contests on this thread....there are 2 methods that are accepted for once established on final approach. We are not talking about the turn from downwind or from base onto final they should always be balanced. It is once established on final. My initial training and almost first 100 hours of flying was done in gliders and that style has been engrained into me. My RAA instructor preferred that method as well so I was happy and comfortable doing it. Oscar said one very important thing...this was started with gliders in mind. You get ONE shot at landing so you do the most efficient and effective way to land and thats it. If no one has done a reasonable amount of gliding you wont know what its like as a one shot approach goes and how the pucker valve get a lot of use. Or try coming up a bit short then having to porpoise over a few fences before you can land.

 

There is a huge amount of very experienced guys on this forum and they are still alive so one would think they KNOW how to do this stuff which ever way in whatever type of aircraft.

 

There are a lot of bold pilots but not a lot of old bold pilots

 

Mark

 

 

[Oscar]

[quote="Kyle Communications, post: 530670, member: 1910". Or try coming up a bit short then having to porpoise over a few fences before you can land.

 

Mark

 

Oh, yes!. Had an outlanding near Tocumwal, into fields with irrigation ditches... Picked a nice one, set up along the track between the paddocks with JUST a wee bit of clearance for the wings between the tree lines; got to the chosen one ready to do a gentle turn to align with the ditches and saw about 100 cows all sheltering in the shade of the trees - not good for gliders... Had JUST enough speed in hand to make the next field, pucker-powered over the fence, ended up stationary about 100 metres from the fence intersections. just before the final fence, I was eye-height level with the top strand of the fences.. The guys from Toc. were not pleased at having to come out for a retrieve, but when they saw the situation, thanked me for not bending the thing or leaving it to be trampled by the cows. ( not effusively, I will admit, I'd interfered with their EOD drinkies and I certainly had to apologise for that in the usual fashion) This was in the days before mobiles were even imagined, so I'd had to leave the thing to phone home, E.T. and cows are naturally curious creatures.

 

 

[kaz3g]

You are over re acting, Dutch. Some people fly from small aerodromes, and I said compact circuits. It's well qualified if you actually read it. I'm presuming you are responding to my post. I looked for others that you might be referring to. Circuit heights are specified and I don't suggest anything outside the rules, but I never go for big circuits unless someone is in the way.. You can be high at 200 feet of course, and you do something about it if the strip is short..Nev

Hi Nev

 

Most of my early time was in gliders and now almost all of my power flying is in my Auster. I too fly "compact" circuits at specified height so that I remain within gliding distance of the airstrip. This is becoming more important at my home strip as the land around it is being rapidly populated with housing developments.

 

It's easier to lose excess height in a glide approach than it is to make the airstrip if the noise stops during a long powered approach.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Coming from both ends being non powered and powered flight. I think power pilots should do about 10 or 15 hrs in gliders preferably before they fly power aircraft but after would be fine but then it will take longer to get the bad habits out of you. Gliding teaches you balanced flight and to fly by the seat of your pants and how to fly very efficiently. That pucker valve you sit on is a incredible vario (sorry vertical speed indicator for those who dont know). If you do not learn how to fly a glider efficiently you will spend a lot of money trying to fly. The aim is to milk all the lift you can to stay up as long as you can or at least as long as you are allowed to depending on how many are waiting to fly your glider. My glider experience I believe has made me a better pilot. I am no expert by any means and still learning every time I fly "the girlfriend". I still consider myself a extreme novice at flying and never go anywhere near the limits of my machine. I do not take any risks at all, never fly when the weather is crap or I feel it will be too much of a learning curve. slowly slowly catchy monkey is my approach

 

Mark

 

 

[facthunter]

I haven't pushed the power on or off approach. That is another story. Again why restrict yourself to one or the other?. If you have to clear a ridge (or trees) at slow speed and then adopt a steep let down to a runway you use both power and sideslip at the appropriate time. If you have flaps you use them, but a lot of types have had the final stage locked off so you can't muck up the go around.If you have a Thruster or Drifter or similar, just a small overspeed dive if aiming short of the touch down point washing the slight extra speed off by flying almost level before touchdown. (conditions permitting). Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

If you operate from a full sized aerodrome you get used to having a lot of extra runway, and it's easy to get away with having quite a few extra knots on over the fence, and get slack in other ways, like not accurately controlling your approach path, and touching down too far in after floating for ages. You might achieve a greasy landing, but That won't be OK if you have to outland to sit out a storm, or because your passenger or you feel a bit ill or the engine is a bit sick. Nev.