Steering on final with rudder

[Peter Collins]

Feet are for steering and for spin avoidance or spin recovery. Flying balanced is great to maintain economy and keep from spilling the wine in 1st Class, but in my view has little else to recommend it. Steep low-level turns are not dangerous - it's getting the plane level afterwards that will kill you - unless you do it with your feet. Lead with your feet, balance with the stick. Best of all, use your feet unaided by hands except at times of complex manoeuvres (like take-offs and landings). A plane under rudder will bank itself and generally fly balanced due to secondary effect. Sure, the nose will drop a bit in the turn, but as you steer back to straight and level (feet only, and ball off-centre - learn to like it) the extra speed will translate to a modest climb and you'll be back to where you started. This works on final, too. but you need to be comfortable riding a bike with no hands, and get to be that comfortable with your plane as well.

 

You can fly a 200 nm passage through turbulence no hands once you learn busy feet. To get comfortable with cross-winds, fly up and down fence lines in cross wind, keeping on track by crabbing or slipping (aligned), climbing and descending, wind from left or right, switching from crab to slip and back now and then. A couple of hours of that every few days and it starts to become automatic. Then for the actual landings ... all the way down final get into an aligned slip like you know how without even thinking about it, keep adjusting as you will without thinking about it, and land the sucker.

 

Why don't I like the crab and twitch method? Because it has to be exquisitely timed just as you touch - too early or too late makes a mess, and I'm still not that good a pilot to be sure when the float will end, so I mostly get the 'twitch-timing' wrong. But the slip stays correct, however long I float.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, if you ever find yourself with one main punctured, or missing, get lined up for a dead stick landing, turn off the mags, jab the starter until the prop is horizontal (won't work for a three-blade) then roll in on a slip and hold that unsupported wing up HARD with the stick (or yoke) and be prepared to ground-loop around the wingtip as it comes down to the ground. It's possible, and it's happened here and there was only minor damage to the wingtip. Unfortunately it's not something that's easy to practice realistically, but fortunately it's not likely to happen to you.

 

I fly IBIS GS700 - I have two, one with Robinson gear, one without (which I have just negotiated to sell).

 

P

 

 

[Keith Page]

Hi Peter

 

That was a very good post, tells and explains the importance of feet and has the exercises included.

 

Great post -- I enjoyed reading it and how you shared you wisdom.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards

 

Keith Page.

 

 

[Yenn]

Peter I can't quite work out what you are saying. you imply that balanced flight is a luxury, and low level steep turns are not dangerous. would you agree that in a low level steep turn it is essential to keep balanced. When I did my low level flying it was shown that the ball must be centred all the time and the outside view would make you think you were skidding or slipping in any kind of cross wind.

 

 

[silvercity]

Feet are for steering and for spin avoidance or spin recovery. Flying balanced is great to maintain economy and keep from spilling the wine in 1st Class, but in my view has little else to recommend it. Steep low-level turns are not dangerous - it's getting the plane level afterwards that will kill you - unless you do it with your feet. Lead with your feet, balance with the stick. Best of all, use your feet unaided by hands except at times of complex manoeuvres (like take-offs and landings). A plane under rudder will bank itself and generally fly balanced due to secondary effect. Sure, the nose will drop a bit in the turn, but as you steer back to straight and level (feet only, and ball off-centre - learn to like it) the extra speed will translate to a modest climb and you'll be back to where you started. This works on final, too. but you need to be comfortable riding a bike with no hands, and get to be that comfortable with your plane as well. P

The concern I have about this post Peter is that some unknowing student pilot will read it and then try putting it into practice. Low-level steep turns are very dangerous and flying "feet only" is sloppy flying ... not to mention uncomfortable for any passenger you may be carrying.

 

We are all entitled to our opinions ... though sometimes, for the sake of others, it's best to keep them to ourselves.

 

 

[Ultralights]

any manoeuvre that brings you close to a stall requires strict balance control. aileron and rudder must be used at the same time, to ensure BALANCED and CO-ORDINATED turns.

 

this is why balance will keep you alive at low speed and altitude

 

 

 

[DrZoos]

Have to agree i dont think its good or safe advice. Too many ifs and buts.

 

 

[Peter Collins]

I stand corrected. I should indeed, for the novice readers, have written that the steep, low turn is dangerous precisely because of the high likelihood that the FSX video will eventuate (thanks, "Ultralights"). But note that the simulated problem became fatal when the rudder was still steering into the turn and the pilot was attempting to roll out using the ailerons (leading with the ailerons, and balancing with the rudder is indeed the standard good technique but it got the FSX into trouble) - I have heard that it could be safer to fractionally lead with the rudder and balance with the ailerons and that only a really observant instructor can tell the difference - and it might have saved the FSX?

 

Isn't it the case that spin recovery (or better still, avoidance) generally requires: 1. reduce revs (not so relevant on approach?) 2. neutral ailerons; 3. opposite rudder; 4. lower the nose. Hence, in a low-speed, tight turn, if rolling out with ailerons could precipitate a spin (if you were stupid enough to turn tight, low and slow, okay?) the best option might be the spin-avoidance strategy of neutral stick and opposite rudder? That is, use the feet to get out of the turn. And of course lower the nose.

 

Your plane might be different - get an instructor with you, go up 3000', and try it. My instructor said - very firmly - that I was approaching stall, keep the stick central and use busy feet. And, if you must turn tight, slow and low (with a death wish?) do remember that it's a trap - you can feel safe getting into the turn, but it's attempting to come OUT of the turn that could kill you - especially if you use the ailerons, because the inner one may stall as soon as look at you, even if the ball is centered.

 

Well, that's what I've been taught, and I practice at altitude, and it does work for me. Up there, anyhow.

 

No ifs and buts - don't attempt to use ailerons to level the wings if the airspeed is down and stalling is imminent - use the rudder. When landing, the airspeed is down and stalling is imminent. I could be mistaken, but it's what I've been taught and I would appreciate an aeronautical/physics-based rebuttal if I'm wrong. "Good technique" is certainly a sound reason but those with enquiring minds may like to understand the 'why' of it.

 

Oh, yes, passengers. My passengers all greatly enjoy flying with me, generally I'm hands-off (as I'm lazy) on trips of hundreds of nm, including instructors, even in turbulence. But I admit I fly IBIS GS700 (about 200 hrs/year) and maybe they are right to call it the "Magic". Other planes may be very different.

 

P

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Peter. If you mention the words airspeed and stalling together again, im gunna scream. I have serious concerns for some of the advice you are offering here. please be careful.

 

neutral stick and opposite rudder to avoid a spin? Why does an aeroplane spin? What are the two ingredients that MUSt be met?

 

There are plenty of Ifs, and quite a few buts here. Sorry.

 

 

[Ultralights]

Stalling is a function of Angle of Attack, nothing more..

 

the only time rudder should be used in an out of balance situation is on finals when countering a crosswind with aileron, and only to keep the nosehwheel pointed down the runway, through the flare and touchdown. as mentioned before, setting up to land in a crosswind this way will give the student, or PIC longer timeframe to get a feel for the crosswind, and amount of roll and rudder needed before the critical moment of touchdown, rudder on final can be used to unbalance the aircraft for a sideslip descent when the approach is to high, but a Go around is the preferred option in this case (if you sideslip to lose height on final in a flight test with me, you will fail instantly) . other that this, rudder for balance in every turn, no matter if steep turn, or standard rate 1 or 2 turns. Most importantly is for turns in the circuit.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Stalling is a function of Angle of Attack, nothing more..the only time rudder should be used in an out of balance situation is on finals when countering a crosswind with aileron, and only to keep the nosehwheel pointed down the runway, through the flare and touchdown. as mentioned before, setting up to land in a crosswind this way will give the student, or PIC longer timeframe to get a feel for the crosswind, and amount of roll and rudder needed before the critical moment of touchdown, rudder on final can be used to unbalance the aircraft for a sideslip descent when the approach is to high, but a Go around is the preferred option in this case (if you sideslip to lose height on final in a flight test with me, you will fail instantly) . other that this, rudder for balance in every turn, no matter if steep turn, or standard rate 1 or 2 turns. Most importantly is for turns in the circuit.

So - you are opposed to controlling the aeroplane? A sideslip final allows a higher kinetic energy be retained, with obvious advantage in situations involving mechanical turbulence and potential windshear. Why do you feel that this manouvre is too complex?

 

 

[Ultralights]

for experienced pilots, its not a complex manoeuvre, but for pre licence students, better to keep things simple and safe, once training in sideslips has been covered, then its ok to introduce them into things like long finals, but if you have flown accurately,kept ahead of the aircraft, have speed under control, you should not have to use a sideslip. but sometimes its forced apon you with ATC forgetting your on a 1500ft downwind and not giving a clearance to descent until base. even so, a go-around is still a safe and normal option in this situation, especially in something slick that will not descent 1500ft from base and still have any hope of slowing to a proper approach speed. (unless you get the speed right back while maintaining level, then descending rapidly well behind the drag curve until flare, something the savannah does well, 30kt approaches at 2000ft min descent rate is fun)

 

 

[metalman]

Stalling is a function of Angle of Attack, nothing more..the only time rudder should be used in an out of balance situation is on finals when countering a crosswind with aileron, and only to keep the nosehwheel pointed down the runway, through the flare and touchdown. as mentioned before, setting up to land in a crosswind this way will give the student, or PIC longer timeframe to get a feel for the crosswind, and amount of roll and rudder needed before the critical moment of touchdown, rudder on final can be used to unbalance the aircraft for a sideslip descent when the approach is to high, but a Go around is the preferred option in this case (if you sideslip to lose height on final in a flight test with me, you will fail instantly) . other that this, rudder for balance in every turn, no matter if steep turn, or standard rate 1 or 2 turns. Most importantly is for turns in the circuit.

I respect you, but I'm glad I didn't do a flight test with you, I've lost count of the pilots I know who can't side slip a plane accurately, a go round isn't always available , whereas a side slip to accurately put the aircraft where you need it should never be thought of as trying to salvage a bad approach, to be certain of reaching the strip having a bit of extra height is a good thing, and being able to loose the height as needed is a good skill. Flying a long flat final might be wonderful in a dash 8 and bigger, not so much in our aircraft, as for choosing to just use your feet, there are a few different controls in an aircraft for a reason, to say one is more important than another just isn't correct, every control complements the others and to make a habit of using yaw and ignoring roll is sloppy . Yes it does have times when one is able to be used alone, rudder for picking up a wing while doing an ETA calc enroute, sure, the ailerons are there for a reason, the elevators are there for a reason, the rudder is there for a reason, along with the throttle, flaps, speed brakes , and whatever other bits your jigger may have, learning to use all the aircraft if the difference between a student and an aviator

Matty

 

 

[Peter Collins]

... to make a habit of using yaw and ignoring roll is sloppy ... Yes it does have times when one is able to be used alone, rudder for picking up a wing while doing an ETA calc enroute ...Matty

Every fixed wing, three axis I've flown so far does exactly what Matty says - the rudder picks up the wing. The plane certainly doesn't just yaw and stay flat. Gentle rudder ... the wing picks up which introduces roll and THEN the banked aircraft executes a balanced turn. I challenge anyone to use yaw alone in a hands-off turn WITHOUT any matching roll occurring. And you finesse how you use your feet. At the roll-out, you gently use the other foot to lift the other wing, and you are back straight and level. Come on you guys - try it! And please, without saying "Never" or "Always" do explain how the AOA can be exceeded or any sort of crossed control introduced this way. Oh, we're not talking 3g turns, more like rate 0.5. Where, exactly, is the danger?

P

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Every fixed wing, three axis I've flown so far does exactly what Matty says - the rudder picks up the wing. The plane certainly doesn't just yaw and stay flat. Gentle rudder ... the wing picks up which introduces roll and THEN the banked aircraft executes a balanced turn. I challenge anyone to use yaw alone in a hands-off turn WITHOUT any matching roll occurring. And you finesse how you use your feet. At the roll-out, you gently use the other foot to lift the other wing, and you are back straight and level. Come on you guys - try it! And please, without saying "Never" or "Always" do explain how the AOA can be exceeded or any sort of crossed control introduced this way. Oh, we're not talking 3g turns, more like rate 0.5. Where, exactly, is the danger?P

In the days of single-channel R/C, you just put the aeroplane into a spiral dive; when fast enough, straighten up and it loops! Or - for non-models - if you yank the stick hard back then boot the rudder, a flick roll! But ultralights aren't R/C OR aerobatic (sob, sniff...).

ps Peter, the prototype Thruster T-83 (single seater) BARELY rolled rudder-only - about a 2km turn radius in cruise - until I rebuilt it with a bit more dihedral

 

 

[facthunter]

The Flying Flea uses the rudder alone but I don't call that a normal aircraft. It has no ailerons and cannot be spun . It doesn't handle crosswinds well or at all in fact. Further effect of controls is most noticed with the rudder. I wouldn't encourage it as a technique as it will get you into a lot of strife with a sweep back wing and/or dihedral..Coordinated turns (balanced, Ball centred) are the most comfortable and safest at speeds where you have a large angle of attack and not a lot of stall margin, but there is a place for positive rudder operation in gusty conditions near the ground as a fully cordinated turn is too slow for keeping an accurate centre line track, ( as an example.) Entering and recovering from a steep turn quickly is similar in most aircraft requiring considerable rudder to perform correctly. Nev

 

 

[metalman]

Every fixed wing, three axis I've flown so far does exactly what Matty says - the rudder picks up the wing. The plane certainly doesn't just yaw and stay flat. Gentle rudder ... the wing picks up which introduces roll and THEN the banked aircraft executes a balanced turn. I challenge anyone to use yaw alone in a hands-off turn WITHOUT any matching roll occurring. And you finesse how you use your feet. At the roll-out, you gently use the other foot to lift the other wing, and you are back straight and level. Come on you guys - try it! And please, without saying "Never" or "Always" do explain how the AOA can be exceeded or any sort of crossed control introduced this way. Oh, we're not talking 3g turns, more like rate 0.5. Where, exactly, is the danger?P

Are you a politician ,first time I've had someone chop a bit out of the middle of a quote to make it seem different, also ,are you a pilot of a student?

 

 

[Peter Collins]

Matty, the thread is steering-on-final-with rudder, though I agree with your whole post, particularly that my flying is probably sloppy, and happy to acknowledge that; and that the feet can be used to pick up a wing when your hands are busy. I'm a 76 year-old retired 'many things' including unemployed ski instructor, retired commercial/industrial researcher, statistician, teacher and so on. I'm about as unpolitical as you can get. I've got 600 hours at about 200 hours per year plus maybe 50 hours under instruction in gyros.

 

I have endorsements for mountain flying, hood, partial panel, unusual attitudes, and lazy-8s to 90 degrees in my aircraft (which is permitted for spinning). I believe we should keep current in all aspects of flying including heavy turbulence, taking the plane out and back to all corners of its safe envelope using gentle technique and keeping the load WELL within the working stress limits. I know that to get six views on how to fly, you only need ask three instructors. Some instructor or other has at some time told me to do one or other of all the things I have expressed. If some seem contradictory, that sure is one of the things you learn as a student - one says 'slip it down' and the next says 'never slip - you'll kill yourself'. One says 'pick it up with rudder' and the next says 'you must be balanced all the time'.

 

Yes, I pick out the bits that suit me best, but I never ignore the rest of it - and as a result I reckon I can fly almost every way any instructor asks. Not perfectly perhaps but it's good to be versatile, because the weather and terrain sure isn't constant. My web page is www.peter-collins.org and my flight follower is www.tinyurl.com/petertravel but I'm not getting much air time while I prepare the new plane for registration and testing.

 

And I never said never to use the ailerons - though I admit I don't use them when just cruising along. But they do have that bad habit, at unhelpful times, of taking the AOA over the peak of the curve and increasing drag while decreasing lift. Those who forget it, at low level, sometimes learn a hard lesson the bad way. I haven't, yet, but maybe I'm lucky or over-compulsive, or something.

 

However, the rudder, as I understand it, doesn't have that problem.

 

P

 

 

[2tonne]

I am a relative newcomer to flying, with only 19 hours in a J160, so keep this in mind when considering my comments.

 

I seemed to encounter a lot of bumpy days early on (started flying during summer) and was getting pushed around a lot on final. I was constantly fighting to keep the nose lined-up with the centreline using aileron (and attempting to coordinate it with rudder). My approaches were pretty ugly, with the nose all over the place. My instructor, however, always had a nice steady approach in the same conditions. He instructed me to use gentle pressure on the rudder once lined-up on final, instead of using aileron. In a crosswind, a wing was put down into wind with some opposite rudder to track the centreline, although not necessarily with the nose lined up on the centreline.

 

It took a little while to stop instinctively using aileron, but once I started using rudder my approaches were much straighter and was no longer fighting to keep the nose in one place.

 

 

[facthunter]

ALL corrections need to be coordinated. You have a delayed response and sometimes overcontrol as the plane may be correcting itself when you add to it. Aileron drag is common and works against what you are trying to achieve. Ailerons are not the most perfect of the controls as extra lift comes at the expense of higher amounts of drag. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Agreed nev. I don't know where instructors get this notion of using only rudder. Rediculous way to fly IMHO and I'd fail any pilot who fronted to a test and used this technique.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Peter i flew model aircraft with two servos for years before 3 and 4 servo rc became available. Some planes we had elev and rudder others elev and aileron. Different planes where better each way.

 

I agree its all possible but its not ideal or best practice. Some aircraft behave very well with just rudder or just aileron , but some dont. The foxbat for example flys very out of balance when rudder is not used. But my alpi you could fly the entire thing without rudder till it came to landing and you would rarely see the ball more then a mm or so from center.

 

With rc models which offer the luxury of experimenting with the limits we found aircraft with lots of dihedral or even polyhedral flew very well with just rudder. Where as low wing and aircraft with little to no dihedral where pathetic with rudder only and so we would go aileron and elevator only.

 

The biggest danger i see is flying slow and low with just rudder. A good stomp on the lower rudder and a graveyard spiral is moments away. Infact when we used to fly the two servo models at mid throttle the way we induced a spin and spiral was exactly that. Fly slow, stomp th inside rudder and away she went. One has to remember inside or lowside rudder at low speed can easily decelerate the inside wing as it yaws the plane.

 

So im not sure why anyone would advocate learning to use rudder only.

 

 

[facthunter]

It, (the ailerons) and the elevator are both very powerful controls. If you are in a steep turn and apply the slightest amount of bottom rudder you are into a spiral immediately. You can fly stalled on the rudder, if you want to practice that. (watch out you don't cook the engine). Flying an ILS in choppy conditions may require a bit of rudder coaxing when you are near minimum and your tolerances are small at that stage. You use rudder and no bank when kicking straight on a crab landing ..

 

You can do it if you are cruising and want to write something on a flight plan, or adjust the settings on a GPS etc. Gentle rudder pressure will lift a wing nicely, if your hands are not available.

 

I would hate to see what might happen if you did it on a B 707 which exhibits dutch roll characteristics. Nev

 

 

[Peter Collins]

Yes, with rudder, as with everything, one needs to understand the effects, and do the smart thing. For example, there are times when pushing the stick forward will rescue you, for example from a stall. But if you are flying straight and level and then hold the stick forward, that would probably end up fatal.

 

Among the things I have been told, it: "Kick for the sky" which I understand to mean in a spin apply opposite rudder, and the same in a graveyard spiral.

 

Of course you can kill yourself with rudder, if you don't know what you are doing - but that applies to all the controls, and indeed to most aviation decision-making.

 

P

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Kick rudder in a graveyard spiral? Dude. Ailerons control roll!!!! Not the rudder!!!. Secondary and further effects of controls are NoT what we use to control the aeroplane. Flap changes pitch too, but we don't use it control te attitude do we?? Carb heat will lower rpm, but we don't use it to do so ( float drivers excluded) . We don't fly on further effects. We do all we can to negate them.

 

The ailerons control roll!!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sh$it, I was wondering when someone would finally say that.