Steering on final with rudder

[facthunter]

Unfortunately the thread title is misleading. A turn is made by directing the lift (banking) in the desired direction and when the desired bank is attained maintaining it and using some back stick to provide the added lift and maintain height where required. Sometimes more power is required or the nose may have to be lowered if you don't have it. You learn the elements of these things very early in your flying career.

 

Turning with rudder alone is like attempting to turn a motorcycle without leaning it over, but the further effect of rudder in the case of an aeroplane, will cause a normal plane to bank and perform a turn with bank , (in a fashion). IF you keep the aeroplane level in roll (NO bank) it has to use the keel surfaces of the fuselage to provide the force towards the centre of the arc you achieve, and it won't feel good, ( you will be against the side of the seat) and will be a very large radius .

 

HAVING SAID THAT There are times when a heading change is required (or a correction) fairly quickly and positively (like decrabbing on landing), keeping a precise course on an ILS in gusty conditions when close to minima, and sideslipping, or aquaplaning on a wet runway. ( There may be others).

 

As far as quoting as gospel, stuff from very experienced pilots who have written very informative books, I think I have found errors in most of them. Not large in most cases but often wrong in the interpretation and application of basic Newtonian Physics which it is a good thing to avoid . A pilot doesn't have to know a plane from the point the DESIGNER does, and vice versa to a lesser extent. Am I setting myself up as someone better than these experts ? Certainly NOT . but don't trust always what you read. If you go right into it and it doesn't click thereby creating confusion in your mind try to have an explanation looking at it from another aspect, that you fully comprehend. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

As far as quoting as gospel, stuff from very experienced pilots who have written very informative books, I think I have found errors in most of them. Not large in most cases but often wrong in the interpretation and application of basic Newtonian Physics which it is a good thing to avoid . A pilot doesn't have to know a plane from the point the DESIGNER does, and vice versa to a lesser extent. ...... Nev

Totally agree, which is why I referenced three reputable sources. Actually, I would say that the two FAA Handbooks are "gospel" for their application and scope. I gave Noel lots of feedback on his first book and he revised it very quickly but we still disagree on one point wrt spins. Rich sought feedback on drafts of his book from a number of people (including myself) and I haven't found anything in the published version to query so an excellent reference.I also find it useful to post links and quote extracts from documents - saves trying to proof-read long posts, especially on an iPad, when I seek to blind others with science.

Nev, I stick to VFR only so interested in how you would hold that ILS course - on final so relevant to this thread.

 

 

[Teckair]

Unfortunately the thread title is misleading.

The original thread was started because I found some students were being taught to fly the full final leg using the rudder only for directional control and keeping the wings level with the ailerons and surprisingly to me some instructors thought this was OK. Can you advise what you think the thread title should have been? I agree with you about having blind faith in books.

Richard.

 

 

[facthunter]

djp, I just find otherwise you limit applications with other parts of our statements, when you can't do it. It's NOT directly relevant as I presented it but I am sure you and I would both agree that when a plane is being flown to very precise tracking near a touchdown point, like between trees or very narrow runway with crook verges , "pointing" it with rudder is necessary in gusty conditions...When the wheels hit they must be pointing somewhere near the direction the plane is going .

 

I appreciate that many here will not fly an ILS but there is a fair access to simulators these days too where control movements/scanning will have to be faster near the ground. I don't wish to imply that for the sort of flying I am referring to done in the sim should be considered as a replacement for actually "flying" a Plane.. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

Your title has achieved the purpose Teckair. After 130 plus replies we get beyond it. I support you actions I do not intend personal criticism of yourself at all. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

For anybody who wants to sugar coat this issue what got me started on it was a pilot who did something very similar to the pilot of the Queenair in post 77. I was doing a tail wheel endorsement for a pilot who had been trained elsewhere. When turning onto final we overshot and he without any warning stood on the left rudder to get lined up on final, I pointed to the ball which was hard against the right hand side. My bum was trying to escape the right side of the seat and I said you are out of balance, you have too much rudder on. His answer was he had been taught to fly that way, I said well you have been taught wrong. Luckily we were in a Lightwing and not a Queenair although the Lightwing has a big responsive rudder we had enough airspeed up our sleeve to cope with the situation. I have noticed this is not confined to RAAus but is common with GA and I think that is where it most likely came from.

 

 

[djpacro]

Probably beaten into his head never to bank more than xxxxx deg onto final, but ......

 

 

[Teckair]

Probably beaten into his head never to bank more than xxxxx deg onto final, but ......

Maybe I don't know, but he was in the habit of holding the wings level with aileron and steering with his feet on final he made an effort not to do that for me but it is hard to break a habit developed over 40 or 50 hours. I got the impression he thought it was only my word against the word of his original instructors.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I had one recently who was exactly the same. I wrote to th raa and recomended he lose his pax endo until re training. It was that bad. He turned with rudder and held off the bank aileron EVERY turn. Climbing turn, almost full rudder and opposite aileron . I thought he was taking the p|ss. But no, he just did not know how to turn an aeroplane.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Its funny with all this talk of spins and spirals and stalls no one is ramming home the message of maintaining safe airspeed. Stay out of the mush and avoid the situation in the first place.

 

 

[facthunter]

Airspeed varies too much, and you can still be unstalled at very low speeds Pilots stall aeroplanes by putting too much angle of attack on by the elevator position. Some of what you blokes are telling me has me dumbfounded.. Specially flying twins with attitudes like what you say. "uncoordinated turns" being normal.Wouldn't last 5 seconds in any outfit I have worked with. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

no one is ramming home the message of maintaining safe airspeed

 

we had enough airspeed up our sleeve to cope with the situation

[Yenn]

Motza. How on earth did that pilot flying with rudder and flat turns ever get a pilots certificate? from what we read here there must be a heap of instructors who are not doing their job and that is a frightening thing to think about.

 

 

[metalman]

Its funny with all this talk of spins and spirals and stalls no one is ramming home the message of maintaining safe airspeed. Stay out of the mush and avoid the situation in the first place.

Maybe because spins ,spirals and stalls can happen at any IAS ,,,,

On the note of flat turns I remember a little poem the military used to remind flyers to do balanced turns

 

"If you want flick,spin and burn

 

Hold off bank in a gliding turn

 

 

[Ignition]

Its funny with all this talk of spins and spirals and stalls no one is ramming home the message of maintaining safe airspeed. Stay out of the mush and avoid the situation in the first place.

What causes a stall?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yenn. Tell me about it. I was gobsmacked.

 

 

[metalman]

What causes a stall?

Mmmm now it'll get real interesting

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Motza. How on earth did that pilot flying with rudder and flat turns ever get a pilots certificate? from what we read here there must be a heap of instructors who are not doing their job and that is a frightening thing to think about.

Perhaps granting someone the responsibility of flying an aircraft and especially carrying a passenger should not rest with one instructor. All humans have varying skills and judgement. In medicine, two or more doctors are required to endorse certain decisions.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Normally it isn't too much of a problem. Everybody has little differences. I'm not too fussed in the small stuff. If a pilot comes to me for a bfr or endo training, and he does things differently, I don't try and change him. As lkng as he's safe and knows what he's doing. I don't profess that my ways are the only ways. If you pick the flaps up at 300 instead if 200.. Or you turn the fuel pump off at 500 instead if 1000... Bla bla.,. I don't care..

 

BUT.. If you turn te aeroplane with ur feet and throw in opposite aileron, and that the way you do it... Then I have a duty of care to you to fix your deadly error...

 

 

[dazza 38]

I watched Nestor demonstrate his Storch back in the day and he was doing flat turns. This was a long time ago, anyway i remember getting told " looks impressive but dont do that in every Aircraft as some aircraft will kill you" enough said

 

 

[motzartmerv]

All instructors are different. I had a chief get very cranky at me fr keeping my hand on the landing gear switch while it was transiting up or down.

 

The chief that endorsed me on twins abused me for NoT holdin the switch.

 

At the end of the day, they both had valid points.

 

 

[facthunter]

That sort of thing is depressing Motz. You do your best and get reamed out To just select something and not be sure your action has actually achieved something is taking a lot for granted. eg you are assuming it will get the desired result. There is a lot of pedanticism in the industry. I have met some magnificent training and checking people and some ordinary ones . As long as you have a good and justifiable reason for what you do it is OK surely?. IF you select DOWN and wait for the three greens what can be better? Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes Nev. It was abit confusing. But I sorta took the word of my chief who wanted it done that way (leaving it on). Id never had a reason not to trust him and he encouraged people to think about what they were being shown and not just follow blindly.

 

The second chief (mr cranky, dont leave your hand on it) was a bit of a cranky bugga, and to be honest, I lost a lot for him when he laughed at me for choosing to land on a runway without papi, when the other runway had it. Although I was into wind ? It was only a dutchess, so nothing really nasty, but I just thought we were on different pages.

 

Anyway, I do prefer to stay in contact with the switch, same with flaps etc. Just to be sure. Just a thing, and I wouldnt begrudge anybody that didnt do it that way.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you reduce the assumptions you make and relate to what is really going on you have to be better off. It's a good aim as long as you don't make a fetish of it. ( I'm certainly not suggesting YOU do, but you get my meaning.) Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol.I try not to, my shrink tells me not to feed my fetishes..It never ends up good.!