Steering on final with rudder

[Peter Collins]

Yeah I know this one, it's when you you let the clutch out too quick.

... but only if you didn't have the revs in the right range for the speed at which the clutch release was executed. See, we can be pedantic about ground vehicles, too. Oh, it's okay to take the piss, by the way. Since I had the operation it's no longer a problem.

 

P

 

 

[Yenn]

I know what causes a stall. It happened to me once, I pushed the stick too far forward.

 

 

[Peter Collins]

I know what causes a stall. It happened to me once, I pushed the stick too far forward.

... aha! I always knew the Corby had idiosyncratic responses to control inputs. Or maybe you were inverted?

P

 

 

[Peter Collins]

This is how I like to steer with the rudder whilst landing, also I find landing on the nose wheel saves wear and tear on the main wheels

 

Read what Noel Kruse has to say about the Caribou, it's control systems, and what it's like to fly! But advanced expertise doesn't hurt, either!

P

 

 

[Yenn]

Peter, yes I was inverted and it wasn't a corby. Not allowed to do aerobatics in RAAus. Chippies are OK.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

What causes a stall?

I'll bite:

The adverse pressure gradient becoming sufficiently large to nullify the mean rearward velocity of the boundary layer (the layer in which the continuity equations no longer match Bernoulli's total energy sum) on the suction surface of the lifting plane. As an immediate consequence, the boundary layer becomes vastly thicker, disrupting the free stream flow - or "separating".

 

 

[metalman]

No way,,,it must be the white line on the speedo,,

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thats a good explanation of what a stall is.. But i maintain...The pilot "causes" the stall.

 

 

[facthunter]

An elephant can if it runs down the back. Nev

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

No way,,,it must be the white line on the speedo,,

ok, ya got me...

 

 

[Neil_S]

An elephant can if it runs down the back. Nev

Haha - reminds me of the brilliant account in Ernest Gann's superb "Fate is the Hunter" where he describes the load of steel radio towers that they are carrying (but had not tied down) slipping down to the back of the plane at takeoff, and his companion's struggle to move them back forward to avert a tail-heavy disaster!

 

Cheers

 

Neil

 

 

[M61A1]

Haha - reminds me of the brilliant account in Ernest Gann's superb "Fate is the Hunter" where he describes the load of steel radio towers that they are carrying (but had not tied down) slipping down to the back of the plane at takeoff, and his companion's struggle to move them back forward to avert a tail-heavy disaster!Cheers

 

Neil

Yes, when I read about Gann's incident, I remembered that I had been told that there has no record of anyone surviving a load shift incident.........well Gann's makes at least one.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Yes, when I read about Gann's incident, I remembered that I had been told that there has no record of anyone surviving a load shift incident.........well Gann's makes at least one.

I seem to recall an account of some cargo getting stuck on the ramp when being shoved out of a Herculese? - when drogue 'chute pallet drops were first being experimented with. And I'm pretty sure some Air America operators had a few minor load shifts... when I stick my hand in my pocket for a hankie whilst flying the T-83, there's a few % CG shift

 

 

[M61A1]

I seem to recall an account of some cargo getting stuck on the ramp when being shoved out of a Herculese? - when drogue 'chute pallet drops were first being experimented with. And I'm pretty sure some Air America operators had a few minor load shifts... when I stick my hand in my pocket for a hankie whilst flying the T-83, there's a few % CG shift

I can't recall who told me such things.....probably a C130 or Caribou loadmaster, back in the eighties. So I should add that they probably weren't talking about small stuff.

 

 

[M61A1]

I seem to recall an account of some cargo getting stuck on the ramp when being shoved out of a Herculese? - when drogue 'chute pallet drops were first being experimented with. And I'm pretty sure some Air America operators had a few minor load shifts... when I stick my hand in my pocket for a hankie whilst flying the T-83, there's a few % CG shift

Another one on that subject......there's a doozy at 1min 10sec.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

None of you have it right. Flying is MAGIC and when the magic stops it stalls. A light on the panel. "GAME OVER" illuminates. There's nothing complex about it. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I hesitate to put a word into this highly erudite discussion; however it does seem to me that there is a lot of generalising going on here, that may not help clarify things for inexperienced pilots.

 

One thing that pilots seem to take for granted, is that all aeroplanes inherently fly the same - sure there are minor differences in control feel etc, but setting those aside, the fundamentals are pretty much the same. This seems to lead to an unstated assumption that that's the only way an aeroplane CAN behave. I have to point out that that is very far from the truth.

 

Certificated aeroplanes all behave pretty much the same, because the design standards demand this, and people spend bood, sweat & tears in achieving this. Modern design standards demand that the dihedral effect is sufficient that IN UNSTALLED FLIGHT the aeroplane will lift the low wing when the ailerons only are released from a fully crossed-control condition; and that the aircraft will yaw towards the low wing when the rudder only is released in a fully crossed-control situation.

 

The practical result is that there is generally sufficient dihedral effect IN UNSTALLED FLIGHT to allow one to roll the aircraft into a rate 1 turn, and roll it out again, with rudder alone; and also sufficient weathercock stability that it is possible to make sloppy, gentle turns with ailerons alone. I had to require an increase in the wing dihedral for the CA 21 Skyfox, the original Jabiru, and the Seabird Seeker, to achieve this. As a result, David Eyre was able to land the prototype Seeker safely despite an aileron disconnect. Do NOT assume this will be the case with a non-certificated aeroplane.

 

However, this behaviour cannot be expected beyond the stall; and the debate about whether one should fool about trying to pick-up a wing at the stall with rudder, is bloody dangerous. The message is, UNSTALL THE DAMN THING - don't sit there trying to show how clever you are with your feet. Teaching people to "pick up a wing with rudder" is bordering on criminal, IMHO. GET THE BLOODY STICK FORWARD! is what should be taught.

 

Now, can we please have an end to this nonsense?

 

 

[M61A1]

None of you have it right. Flying is MAGIC and when the magic stops it stalls. A light on the panel. "GAME OVER" illuminates. There's nothing complex about it. Nev

I'm not sure.......I don't have a light for when it stops flying, I do have one that comes on when it goes quiet.

 

 

[Peter Collins]

I hesitate to put a word into this highly erudite discussion; however it does seem to me that there is a lot of generalising going on here, that may not help clarify things for inexperienced pilots. One thing that pilots seem to take for granted, is that all aeroplanes inherently fly the same - sure there are minor differences in control feel etc, but setting those aside, the fundamentals are pretty much the same. This seems to lead to an unstated assumption that that's the only way an aeroplane CAN behave. I have to point out that that is very far from the truth.

 

Certificated aeroplanes all behave pretty much the same, because the design standards demand this, and people spend bood, sweat & tears in achieving this. Modern design standards demand that the dihedral effect is sufficient that IN UNSTALLED FLIGHT the aeroplane will lift the low wing when the ailerons only are released from a fully crossed-control condition; and that the aircraft will yaw towards the low wing when the rudder only is released in a fully crossed-control situation.

 

The practical result is that there is generally sufficient dihedral effect IN UNSTALLED FLIGHT to allow one to roll the aircraft into a rate 1 turn, and roll it out again, with rudder alone; and also sufficient weathercock stability that it is possible to make sloppy, gentle turns with ailerons alone. I had to require an increase in the wing dihedral for the CA 21 Skyfox, the original Jabiru, and the Seabird Seeker, to achieve this. As a result, David Eyre was able to land the prototype Seeker safely despite an aileron disconnect. Do NOT assume this will be the case with a non-certificated aeroplane.

 

However, this behaviour cannot be expected beyond the stall; and the debate about whether one should fool about trying to pick-up a wing at the stall with rudder, is bloody dangerous. The message is, UNSTALL THE DAMN THING - don't sit there trying to show how clever you are with your feet. Teaching people to "pick up a wing with rudder" is bordering on criminal, IMHO. GET THE BLOODY STICK FORWARD! is what should be taught.

 

Now, can we please have an end to this nonsense?

Let's remember the topic is "steering-on-final-with-rudder". Yes, many aircraft fly differently. Yes, unstalled rate 1 turns with rudder may feasible, and this pilot, being lazy and slack, uses them (in his plane) most of the time in high cruise, but NEVER in circuit.

After late final I believe it would take really good understanding of the aircraft behaviour, and your own skill, to get the bloody stick forward. I know of at least two cases of damage hereabouts due to that. Several instructors have told me NEVER even ease the stick forward at low level. Hold it back, let it settle, or, if you are too high, give it more power. But what would I know - I'm a relative greenhorn.

 

But I DO fly finals balanced or slip. Slip I use if too high (or if far too high I fly balanced "S"s or "8"s towards the field until I am low enough - or go round, depending on whether farm or airfield, the circumstances and the field rules), and I also use slip to get and stay aligned for a cross-wind landing. From base and onwards I make ALL turns with increased descent (sort of 'diving into them' somewhat, just in case I was already a bit too 'slow'). Coming over the hedge, I also lower the nose for a few more knots as I round out rather than risk a wind-sheer pancake (which I have found can lead to unwanted workshop time and bills).

 

I'm NOT saying fly like I do. Don't. I'm not an instructor, and your plane will be different. But these things I have been variously taught, they might be useful discussion topics with YOUR instructor(s).

 

P

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Let's remember the topic is "steering-on-final-with-rudder". Yes, many aircraft fly differently. Yes, unstalled rate 1 turns with rudder may feasible, and this pilot, being lazy and slack, uses them (in his plane) most of the time in high cruise, but NEVER in circuit.After late final I believe it would take really good understanding of the aircraft behaviour, and your own skill, to get the bloody stick forward. I know of at least two cases of damage hereabouts due to that. Several instructors have told me NEVER even ease the stick forward at low level. Hold it back, let it settle, or, if you are too high, give it more power. But what would I know - I'm a relative greenhorn.

 

But I DO fly finals balanced or slip. Slip I use if too high (or if far too high I fly balanced "S"s or "8"s towards the field until I am low enough - or go round, depending on whether farm or airfield, the circumstances and the field rules), and I also use slip to get and stay aligned for a cross-wind landing. From base and onwards I make ALL turns with increased descent (sort of 'diving into them' somewhat, just in case I was already a bit too 'slow'). Coming over the hedge, I also lower the nose for a few more knots as I round out rather than risk a wind-sheer pancake (which I have found can lead to unwanted workshop time and bills).

 

I'm NOT saying fly like I do. Don't. I'm not an instructor, and your plane will be different. But these things I have been variously taught, they might be useful discussion topics with YOUR instructor(s).

 

P

I have no objections to the basic thread topic, or the discussions relating to it. I, too, slip off excess height and use a mixture of crab and slip techniques, according to the aircraft type; how else can you land in a crosswind (is there any other kind?) unless your aircraft has "cross-wind" landing gear (a few Austers did - they are quite startling to watch, landing in a crosswind). However the off-topic debate on "picking up a wing with rudder" is misleading. In a properly-conducted landing, the wheels should be no more than about six inches off the ground when the stall warning sounds (at least 5 knots above the actual onset of stall, in a certificated aircraft - indeed, most aircraft are running out of elevator due to the ground effect, and the wing is not likely to stall.) However, you need to read the fine print in the flight manual - some aircraft - the DH Chipmunk for one - had slipping verboten with the flaps extended; a restriction like that generally means it can have a vicious stall in a strong slip condition; most aircraft do - the saving factor is that the sideslip makes the ASI read low, due to the cross-flow on the pitot head, so pilots who watch the ASI will have a hidden margin. This effect is sufficiently large, in a Super Cub, that the flap speed can be exceeded without the pilot being aware of it, with resulting damage to the flap hinges.

Me for dive brakes . . .

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Some configurations of pitot head cause the ASI to over read in a sideslip.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Some configurations of pitot head cause the ASI to over read in a sideslip.

Got any pix of them? NACA TR 31 (1919), and Report 264 both show most all pitots having a fair accuracy over a range of ~+/- 20 degrees...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

The pitot and aofa indicator on the airline cockpit jabs is the worst one I've come across. We have seen it over read by 5 kts.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Let's remember the topic is "steering-on-final-with-rudder". Yes, many aircraft fly differently. Yes, unstalled rate 1 turns with rudder may feasible, and this pilot, being lazy and slack, uses them (in his plane) most of the time in high cruise, but NEVER in circuit.After late final I believe it would take really good understanding of the aircraft behaviour, and your own skill, to get the bloody stick forward. I know of at least two cases of damage hereabouts due to that. Several instructors have told me NEVER even ease the stick forward at low level. Hold it back, let it settle, or, if you are too high, give it more power. But what would I know - I'm a relative greenhorn.

 

But I DO fly finals balanced or slip. Slip I use if too high (or if far too high I fly balanced "S"s or "8"s towards the field until I am low enough - or go round, depending on whether farm or airfield, the circumstances and the field rules), and I also use slip to get and stay aligned for a cross-wind landing. From base and onwards I make ALL turns with increased descent (sort of 'diving into them' somewhat, just in case I was already a bit too 'slow'). Coming over the hedge, I also lower the nose for a few more knots as I round out rather than risk a wind-sheer pancake (which I have found can lead to unwanted workshop time and bills).

 

I'm NOT saying fly like I do. Don't. I'm not an instructor, and your plane will be different. But these things I have been variously taught, they might be useful discussion topics with YOUR instructor(s).

 

P

Peter, I was taught not to fly the final right into the ground, but to seperate the final approach and the landing. I'll dare the wrath of the anti-slip crowd and say, I generally like to keep a few knots up my sleeve (in slow aeroplanes or gusty conditions) by slipping down final - the resultant steep final lets me begin the landing transition right at the start of the strip - and then fly the landing, in ground effect pretty much, waiting for the speed to bleed off until the wheels go "squip"... the spare energy is available until a few seconds before touchdown, so the window of exposure to loss of situational control is smaller than in the non-slip, 1.3Vs final approach I was first taught (same instructor, I might add).

Of course, in a Blanik you just use the divebrakes and fly at 50 kts!

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

The pitot and aofa indicator on the airline cockpit jabs is the worst one I've come across. We have seen it over read by 5 kts.

I'd suspect static PEs first... BEAGLE were the masters of that; one of the Austers (J5-G?) under-read by 9% at stall, over-read by 9% at VH (at the time they were allowed 10% error!). The trick is to put the pitot under the wing root, far enough aft that it's in suction at cruise and pressure near stall; and put the pitot ahead of the wing LE, angled so that the crossflow exceeds 20 degrees at about 1.15 VS0... I had my T-83 stalling at 22kts and cruising at 65 for a while...