Safety - Scanning the Skies for other planes

[Mark11]

What do you guys do when flying coastal. Do you stay over land heading south (on east coast) and then water north ??? As per following a feature stay right of the feature ???It seems to me that nearly everyone flys over water when coastal ??? Interested to hear your thoughts on that.

 

Its not real busy here coastal, but i have a few upcoming trips towards Sydney and GC

From what I've seen - its wherever you like

 

 

[ayavner]

I always fly just over the water with the land to my left if I am going north (within gliding distance of course). There are a lot of ridges and escarpments on the land side of Wollongong that make it pretty rocky at times. But yeah, seems to be pretty open.

 

I generally let down to 1000 a few miles out then approach early downwind from a 45 degree angle out, that seems to give me pretty good awareness - that's if I already know the circuit direction. But if I'm unsure, yeah overfly at 1500 to the dead side, then let down and join cross wind of whatever direction looks best. I'll have a look at that doco as well Andy, to make sure I'm not forgetting anything.

 

Another thing I've noticed out there, probably similar elsewhere is people tend to just do what the last person did, even if the windsock is clearly blowing the wrong way. Don't be afraid to take the lead and change runway if more appropriate, just make the right radio calls.

 

 

[Yenn]

Normally accepted method is to keep the surf line on your left. that way the pilot has it on his side of the plane and in this area North bound is out to sea. It has got built up a lot since I lived at Barrack Point.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Yeh thats what i thought. I always keep it on my left, but its a bit russian roulette with others not really caring about it. Technically if your following a feature ie: the coastline it should be on your left...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hemispherical's are better, Not a legal requirement under 5000 ft, but better then "keep it on ya left"

 

But the real danger area is around the cct area. As we have already seen from post's. The "right" way to join is not something well taught in the area.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Another thing I've noticed out there, probably similar elsewhere is people tend to just do what the last person did, even if the windsock is clearly blowing the wrong way. Don't be afraid to take the lead and change runway if more appropriate, just make the right radio calls.

Adam,

 

Very good attitude and sound common-sense, as PIC if you feel uncomfortable about landing downwind you have the right to land into the wind on the most suitable runway making the appropriate calls in the CTAF as you are the PIC.

 

I heard recently at a fly-in I usually attend but couldn't last November that 2 trikes went @ss up landing in a fairly decent cross tailwind causing untold damage to both craft but luckily no personal injuries, all because the organisers said to those attending don't fly over the town on your approach as we don't want to upset the town folk.

 

This airport I am talking about has a mountain behind it to the south and the runways pointing north and to the south with the base approach having to skirt the side of the mountain before turning onto final.

 

I have landed there many times and whatever runway favours the most into the wind I landed on much to the objection of some of the organisers. (my answer is I am PIC and the runway points to the town and I'm going to use the one which favours the most into the wind)

 

And these people who rolled there craft up into a ball complain about we had to land that way, that to me is not being a PIC and got the results that they weren't actually looking for through no fault of their own

 

Alf

 

 

[DrZoos]

People should be reading the course materials , its in there for sure.

 

Hemispherical's are better, Not a legal requirement under 5000 ft, but better then "keep it on ya left"But the real danger area is around the cct area. As we have already seen from post's. The "right" way to join is not something well taught in the area.

true but i always wonder what happens when someones heading 001 and someone else 179 crosses paths... Good to follow, but ive always thought on the east coast , north south would be a good system as well.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Hi Mark. Looked like a nice day for it:). Nice days bring out all the weekend worriers, so extra vigilance is needed. Ywol is one of those strips that really does require your full attention.The mix of traffic there makes it an interesting place to say the least. One thing i think that can improve things is to join from the deadside. The jump plane will join any leg, from any height, the training planes from NSW air like to do 747 circuits, and it seems to be the norm to just rock in where ever you feel its cool. Keep it high and get to the deadside and pick up the traffic from there. Makes for a safer, more relaxed approach:)

Thanx for the pics..

Andy,

A concern of mine for an aircraft joining a 500' circuit on the crosswind leg, is the chance of conflict with a fast climbing aircraft taking off.

 

My preference is to descend out side the circuit area and either overfly midfield at 500' joining mid downwind or if I don't believe a look at the conditions is necessary join long downwind at 500.

 

What say you?

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hey Bill. Im glad you asked. Its a bit of a pet 'bone' of mine. The join you described is the best one IMHO, only the terminology needs to be adjusted.

 

If you are over flying at 500 ft and 'joining mid downwind, you are actually joining mid field xwind, which is IMHO the safest place to join a cct.

 

Joining the cct means, where you enter the cct.

 

So for instance, joining downwind would mean from the 'live side, either on a 45 deg, or a long downwind as you described.

 

But over flying at 500ft, technically you are already in the cct the moment you enter the live side, which in your example is midfield xwind.

 

It might sound like semantics, but your call of "joining downwind, would not be correct, and would have people looking for you in a different area of the cct. However, the call of 'joining mid field xwind' would be the correct call.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Thx Andy,

 

My normal call for the above would be traffic xxx microlight xxxx overflying @ 500' joining mid downwind for full stop runway xx traffic xxx. Yeah I never thought of midfield crosswind, I guess because I've never heard it.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

yea Bill, just remember that when you cross to the live side and your at circuit height, you've joined the cct.:) its still the safest way to join. Especially with a mix of traffic.

 

:) fly safe

 

 

[kaz3g]

Normally accepted method is to keep the surf line on your left. that way the pilot has it on his side of the plane and in this area North bound is out to sea. It has got built up a lot since I lived at Barrack Point.

It's the same here in Vic, Yenn. North on the coastal route is just inland of the water line and south is just to seaward of it so aircraft travelling in opposite directions obey the basic rule and pass to the right of each other. Common sense.

 

Joining by descending in the circuit or in the opposite direction to aircraft already in the circuit is deadly.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... North on the coastal route is just inland of the water line and south is just to seaward of it so aircraft travelling in opposite directions obey the basic rule and pass to the right of each other. ..Kaz

Kaz are you sure you didn't get those back to front? Yenn's explanation was simple and clear.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

North on the coastal route is just inland of the water line and south is just to seaward of it so aircraft travelling in opposite directions obey the basic rule and pass to the right of each other. Common sense.

 

Kaz

perhaps different in VIC? Hemisphericals people. !!!Stick to the regs and not rules of thumb..:)IMHO

 

 

[Ignition]

Kaz has got it back to front, you should pass to the right, keeping the other aircraft on your left, where possible.

 

CAR 162: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s162.html - "(2) When two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so and there is danger of collision, each shall alter its heading to the right."

 

Hemisphericals are good too, Andy.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, very good Ignition, but the point of this thread was how difficult aircraft are to spot. keeping an aircraft you cant see- or dont even know hes there- on the left is quite a task wouldnt you say?

 

 

[Yenn]

Kaz was referring to the West coast of Vic??

 

 

[Nick Evison]

In the UK we use the Quadrantals Rule seems to work well for such a densely populated area.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Nick

 

We had quad but changed to hemi. I believe the reasoning was to separate IFR & VFR traffic.

 

 

[ayavner]

From a practical sense I understand (and definitely adhere to) the hemi rule when doing any sort of trip, however not sure how to apply it when i am just buzzing up and down the coast at 2500 feet between Kiama and sea-cliff bridge? Seems like by the time i got up to 3500 feet, it would be time to turn around and descend again?

 

i'll have a think on that, but in the meantime i keep very close tabs on the radio, and my passenger briefing includes the phrase "if you see something, say something!"

 

 

[kaz3g]

It's the same here in Vic, Yenn. North on the coastal route is just inland of the water line and south is just to seaward of it so aircraft travelling in opposite directions obey the basic rule and pass to the right of each other. Common sense.Joining by descending in the circuit or in the opposite direction to aircraft already in the circuit is deadly.

 

Kaz

I should point put that the Victorian coastal route is a VFR lane travelling up the eastern coastline of Port Phillip hence the water is on your left as you travel north. Have a look at the Melbourne VTC and you will see it runs north from abeam the Moorabbin Control Area until it swings east abeam Albert Park. Traffic is referred to as north bound or southbound as applicable.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

perhaps different in VIC? Hemisphericals people. !!!Stick to the regs and not rules of thumb..:)IMHO

Look at the Melbourne VTC

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What's it say kaz?

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz has got it back to front, you should pass to the right, keeping the other aircraft on your left, where possible.CAR 162: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s162.html - "(2) When two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so and there is danger of collision, each shall alter its heading to the right."

 

Hemisphericals are good too, Andy.

As above but I just had a look at the latest Visual Pilots guide for the Melbourne Basin and see on page 69 (true) that the procedure for the coastal route now places both north and southbound aircraft wholly over the water. When I was taught to fly it you used the shoreline as a definitive separation landmark when departing Moorabbin for Point Cook.

 

Kaz

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Oh ok Kaz. A defined 'route' will usually be accompanied with instructions for separation. Like the victor 1 in sydney etc. lanes of entry into Bankstwon and camden.

 

Thats a litte different to what the guys are talking about here, where there is no defined route but a well used bit of coastline. The normal separation and navigation rules should apply in these circumstances, accompanied by good radio lookout and of course, the visual scan.