RAAus and engine-off

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon a Jabiru with the engine out is harder to fly into the right place for landing than a glider. The glider has a big difference between clean and full airbrake, and you can easily correct any errors. In particular, an undershoot needs to be extreme before you have a problem in the glider, you just close the airbrakes and a mild undershoot comes good.

 

Once I did a long glide in the Jabiru ( engine idling) into an airfield, and would have easily made it but then I foolishly went into a circuit. On turning base, the glide to the airfield had been lost, and with no airbrakes to close the engine had to be used. If I had done this with a real engine-out the Jabiru would have been in the trees.

 

I did this stuff-up with 3000 hours gliding and 400 hours Jabiru time..

 

 

[robinsm]

I reckon a Jabiru with the engine out is harder to fly into the right place for landing than a glider. The glider has a big difference between clean and full airbrake, and you can easily correct any errors. In particular, an undershoot needs to be extreme before you have a problem in the glider, you just close the airbrakes and a mild undershoot comes good.Once I did a long glide in the Jabiru ( engine idling) into an airfield, and would have easily made it but then I foolishly went into a circuit. On turning base, the glide to the airfield had been lost, and with no airbrakes to close the engine had to be used. If I had done this with a real engine-out the Jabiru would have been in the trees.

I did this stuff-up with 3000 hours gliding and 400 hours Jabiru time..

When the engines off, I thought the priority would be getting it on the ground, not joining the circuit and being pretty about it. Circular decent over the airfield so you can at least put it somewhere flat.

 

 

[rankamateur]

One of the most memorable mistakes I made while training, and there were a few to choose from, was during "engine failure in the circuit" training, I persisted to try and fly a square cornered normal circuit, arriving at the strip about 200m short, would have been quite achievable if I had cut the base/final corner as I should have.

 

 

[facthunter]

A glider is much easier to fly than a powered plane with the engine out. While they are at that point , both gliding,.... the relatively poor glide ratio of most powered planes, makes the judgement more critical. AS stated the prop stopped on some aircraft extends the glide. Basically overshoot like blazes and have a way of washing off the not needed height WHEN you are SURE of getting in, and don't get too far downwind of the obstacles you MUST clear, to land safely. (ie, the upwind fence). You will be lucky if you know accurately your height above the area you have selected to land on, in a real situation. Practice helps and remember, if you are in a headwind situation, fly at a higher groundspeed by maintaining a higher airspeed, and you can't stretch a glide by lifting the nose. Nev.

 

 

[M61A1]

Didn't get engine-off training unfortunately, just at idle revs but on the positive side engine failure training was right down to (well just above) the paddock, none of this 500 feet stuff - 500mm is good.

I really don't know what's optimistic about this post. I am a low hour pilot, and have experienced a genuine power loss. What I can say, is that decent engine failure training with an instructor who is also an Ag pilot, which was almost to the ground every time (wheels in the grass), meant that the real power loss was a not a big deal for me (as well as a non-event).

 

 

[farri]

Ok! So some of us agree that engine failure training with the engine shut down should be part of the training syllabus,in the hope that such training will make the pilot better prepared to carry out a safe landing, if/when the real thing happens.

 

So far I`ve counted 6 here,who have said they received engine off training. What I`d like to know! Did the instructor of each of the 6 so far ( and the others also)make it absolutely clear that the best chance of survival in the event of a real engine failure, is to be, within gliding distance of a suitable landing area?

 

Frank.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, And staying in control..!!!

 

 

[farri]

Good for you,Motz.

 

Frank.

 

 

[pylon500]

within gliding distance of a suitable landing area

Good idea at any time in flight, and almost imperative when in circuit.

Why do circuits further out than you can glide back?

 

The other one to watch though is not rushing back to the strip and finding yourself 200 feet above the centre, and nowhere to go but AWAY from the strip.

 

If you have done a few 'DEAD STICK' landings in you career, at least be familiar with full glide approaches.....

 

It's all I'll teach.

 

 

[metalman]

Ok! So some of us agree that engine failure training with the engine shut down should be part of the training syllabus,in the hope that such training will make the pilot better prepared to carry out a safe landing, if/when the real thing happens.So far I`ve counted 6 here,who have said they received engine off training. What I`d like to know! Did the instructor of each of the 6 so far ( and the others also)make it absolutely clear that the best chance of survival in the event of a real engine failure, is to be, within gliding distance of a suitable landing area?

 

Frank.

Yep, I was taught to ALWAYS have a suitable place already chosen,,,,,,,it does make it uncomfortable when you find yourself with buggerall options.

I was always taught to pull power to idle at the base turn, it was a dedicated RAA school ,the local school does GA aswell and teaches a powered approach, I do a mix now . A great exercise ,and lots of fun is to see how close you can fly up to the runway with to much height and then get it on the keys ,I like to practice by holding around 700 agl on final and then side slipping in to see how short I can land it, it's good to know just what you and the aircraft are capable of ,

 

Matty

 

 

[rankamateur]

In my training we turned the engine off once,at altitude, forced landing practices with the throttle pulled were carried right through to touch down where suitable ground was selected. Made for an interesting reaction from a ground sprayrig operator turning onto the cotton headland I was approaching to land, I had about 100' on him at the time, his boss said he had some choice words on the two-way!

 

 

[Guernsey]

All of my training in Guernsey was based on glide approaches on final and powered approaches with full flap on short field landings. (Auster training).

 

Alan.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

This subject is probably an ideal topic to run through a risk assessment process (a process experienced aviators do continuously without being conscious of it)

 

Considerations could include:

 

- Effect on an engine life subjected to in flight shutdowns as opposed to operating at idle

 

- difference in glide performance with engine at idle versus shutdown (a few knots of breeze would likely have a greater effect)

 

- risk of accident when committed to an engine out approach and landing

 

- training value if instructor is required to provide verbal input or take over in over/undershoot with engine shutdown versus letting the situation develop knowing power is available at idle.

 

 

[cheyenne]

In my training the CFI turned off the engine in a jabiru just as I turned base, it got my attention real quick just how much it changed the flare and touch down point. Years later on a holiday trip the engine stopped at 6000ft, that training assisted in the decision making for a safe landing.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Ok! So some of us agree that engine failure training with the engine shut down should be part of the training syllabus,in the hope that such training will make the pilot better prepared to carry out a safe landing, if/when the real thing happens.So far I`ve counted 6 here,who have said they received engine off training. What I`d like to know! Did the instructor of each of the 6 so far ( and the others also)make it absolutely clear that the best chance of survival in the event of a real engine failure, is to be, within gliding distance of a suitable landing area?

 

Frank.

Yes my instructor drummed that into me. Infact I am a bit paranoid about flying over tiger country and not having a place to land if the donk ever stops. When I fly to the Murgon breakfast a lot of guys take the straight path that takes you over a heap of tiger country...I don't I go to the west and follow the curved line of the tiger country and at 5 or 7000 ft so I have a good gliding distance. I always look at google earth for flight planning to have a look at what sort of country I am flying over to make sure I track for the shortest and best path incase of a engine failure....so yes to your question...I am very very aware of looking at where I fly and where I can land just in case

 

Mark

 

 

[Guest becky1]

The RAA has issued to all flight facilities the CASA flight instructors manual and in that it states under training for emergency procedures which includes forced landing practice "Note: The engine failure should be simulated only by closing the throttle, ignition switches,fuel selectors should not be moved during practice "

 

I have no doubt that there are very good reasons for this stipulation and is one I prefer to follow.

 

Is the risk worth the reward ? " Of what engine off training is going to provide"

 

What if, you are about to touch down with no engine and it all goes pear shape,try and do a quick engine restart then,

 

Or simply the engine will not restart when you need it too for any reason whilst your practicing your forced landings,so then you are turning a simulation into a real emergency.

 

Flying has been taught now for over a 100 years or so,regulators or over the world have arrived at their recomendations for a reason and on the main, their experience is ,that adequate training for engine failures without adding extra risk to the crew is to reduce the engine power to idle.

 

Jennifer

 

 

[rankamateur]

5 or 7000 ft so I have a good gliding distance.

Watch out for IFR's

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

sorry I meant 5500 or 7500....it was only to be a indication that I go high over the tigers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Becky, the raa has a facility in the rules for fanstops in the cct with a cfi. The raa ops manual doesn't refer to the casa instructor manual, and indeed the manual is in no way a legal document.The points you raise are valid, but I believe, as do other instructors, that the benifits are many while te risk is not significantly increased providing the manouvre is handled with care.

 

 

[Guest becky1]

Well Motz, we will have to agree to disagree on this,I am aware the RAA does allow it and that the CASA instructors manual is advisory and that advice,I believe is good advice.

 

Some instructors may feel it is beneficial and worth the increased risk,however I am not one of those.

 

All the best.

 

Jennifer

 

 

[turboplanner]

You are adding an additional risk, which you then have to manage on top of everything else.

 

Mathematically that's not the optimum way to go.

 

Is it so hard to get correct glide speed with or without rpm?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Without putting to fine a point on it, if there is an added risk due to the CFI not being able to keep the aeroplane safe, with regards to distance from the strip etc, then the CFI should take up something else. It really is (should be) bread and butter for any decent Instructor.

 

The benefits far outweigh the risk. Have you ever attempted a true restart in the air? Do you know what the symptoms of an engine about to run out of fuel are? How much time do you get to swap tanks if one tank is exhausted? Have you tried to land with your vision obscured by the prop being stopped in the perfectly 'wrong position'.? Have you experienced the 'shock' of having a stopped prop starring you in the face ? How do you think you will handle that shock.? How will the aeroplane handle with out the windmilling prop? Will the prop windmill at all? or will it stop dead? Should you coursen or fine up an adjustable prop to maximise glide range? Can you use the prop position to aid in increasing drag if you need it? is the aeroplane still going to fly??? Or will it fall from the sky like it does on the movies? But the biggest advantage to students is ..... The confidence they can (and do) acquire by realising that they can have complete control over the aeroplane without the use of power and actually put the thing down exactly where they want to. Not just a theoretical knowledge, but a real, practiced and perfected skill. If you think all those learning outcomes are outweighed by the small chance an experienced CFI will balls up the approach AND the engine wont start again, then we will have to agree to dissagree.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The answer is No, no, no, no,no,etc as you no.

 

 

[greybeard]

I love the advice on this site. With so many real world experts in the aviation industry, who knows how many millions hours of collective wisdom and experience, incident investigations, knowledge etc and every now and then a little gem of wisdom pops up on here that refutes it all.

 

sigh

 

Sort of like practicing knife throwing and using yourself as the target, yes, you'd hope to get pretty good at not hitting yourself but the downside would be a bummer

 

I'm more than happy to practice engine outs, but if you're in an aircraft with me and you deliberately put me at risk by stopping the engine, we're going to have an exchange of unpleasentries.

 

 

[facthunter]

Back when Pontius was around the powers decided that shutting the engine (s) down was risky and most do it by setting the engine up to equal engine feathered (where applicable) thrust. Often more pilots were killed in training than in operations even in wartime and similar things were happening in multi engine training in airlines. Simulators have taken over there. It would be worthwhile to know the difference in any plane with engine rotating with idle and no idle power and engine stopped. Most engines we operate will stop when switched off and idle power will vary depending on the way the engine is set up, so there are a few variables to cope with.

 

It would be reasonable to set the plane up with various configurations and compare the sink rate, in your training Your airspeed need not vary for the purpose of this assessment. The sink rate will give you a comparison of the time(s) you have to ground level and as I have said previously, that is only a guess unless it is a known field, and your altimeter is set correctly.. Unless there is a marked difference we might be hair splitting here, if we go much beyond saying to ourselves something like "prop stopped, plane glides a bit better". Might be better to keep an eye on how you are going, and adjusting your track. Forget things like 500 feet on final . Not applicable nor desirable.. A longish final means you could have flown it more safely. Nev