What freq to use?

[coljones]

ColAs per post 6

Thanks Frank.

Which has legal precedence? CAAP which tells us we shouldn't use Multicom 126.7 OR AIP ENR 1.4 3.2.1 which tells us we should use 126.7 when there is no CTAF.

 

If we followed the italics in CAAP 166-1(2) we would use 124.55 Sydney Radar as a local frequency for The Oaks.

 

 

[Chocolate]

Then there is AIP GEN 7 traffic information broadcast by aircraft. With acronym of course..TIBA. Cross reference with PCA that shows estimated VHF coverage below 5000'. Pretty good coverage...someone is gonna hear that mayday. So when would 126.35 get used? And who would be listening.

 

 

[aro]

Page 16 CAAP(1)-2:Note: Feedback from the industry suggests there is some confusion about this procedure, and many pilots are using the Multicom frequency, 126.7 MHz, at aerodromes without a CTAF. Pilots should use the relevant Area Frequency as described above, unless they are in the vicinity of a CTAF aerodrome or in a Broadcast Area "

 

Kaz

126.7 is what is written in AIP. If confusion exists, I'm not sure whether those following AIP are the ones that are confused, or those that wrote the CAAP? Is the CAAP reducing confusion or creating it?

 

 

[metalman]

It's real simple, if your in a CTAF then use the freq in the ERSA for that common traffic advisory frequency ,,,if your enroute use the area freq, if your using your own paddock, then think about who might need to know you're about ,,,and talk to them on the nessasary freq, and if your a glider pilot,,,continue to ignore us all and have fun!

 

 

[DrZoos]

What a mess, if its this complex it needs fixing. It cant be hard to create a simple rule for all people to follow. We managed to get the internet to work.

 

 

[Neil_S]

What a mess, if its this complex it needs fixing. It cant be hard to create a simple rule for all people to follow. We managed to get the internet to work.

Agreed. It is bad that AIP & CAAP contradict each other. I would have thought the following should apply.

1. If the airfield/ALA is neither in ERSA nor on the charts (VTC/VNC etc) then broadcasting on 126.7 will be a waste of time as people flying in the area will probably have no clue it even exists and will not be listening on 126.7, but rather on the area frequency. So broadcast on the area frequency, giving a very brief description of its location.

 

2. If the airfield/ALA is marked on the charts, but has no CTAF and is not in ERSA, then when in the vicinity listen on 126.7 and broadcast on 126.7.

 

Cheers

 

Neil

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...2. If the airfield/ALA is marked on the charts, but has no CTAF and is not in ERSA, then when in the vicinity listen on 126.7 and broadcast on 126.7.

...but also give a call on Area frequency; that's what passing traffic will be listening to.

 

 

[coljones]

...but also give a call on Area frequency; that's what passing traffic will be listening to.

But passing traffic shouldn't be that low (below, say, 3000feet agl) but if they are, they should be listening out on a local frequency be it CTAF or the frequency that everyone uses when there isn't a published frequency and announcing their intentions.

I think the CAAP is incorrect and unsafe but the AIP is quite clear. If you are at a busy 126.7 airfield and that frequency got shut down and the strip gets moved to a busy area frequency it could get really, really busy and confusing and dangerous. Area frequencies are really enroute frequencies, not terminal frequencies - that is what CTAFs are for.

 

 

[Ryanm]

I wouldn't assume that "passing" traffic is always up nice and high. They may be operating at a lower level due cloud, operational reasons or just because they want to.

 

The AIP states that when an aircraft is leaving controlled airspace, they are to make a broadcast on the area frequency with their position, level, intentions. eg; "Traffic to the North of XXXX and Melbourne Centre, ABC is 20nm to the north of XXX passing F180 on decent, joining a 10nm final rwy XX, estimating the circuit at 15."

 

So if you are on your way into the same field and monitoring Area, you will know about that traffic. If you're only monitoring the CTAF, you won't know about it till it's potentially a conflict. That isn't to say that there may already be a conflict, but it's just one more safeguard.

 

That's just one example, there are many other reasons why monitoring the Area frequency is important.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

But passing traffic shouldn't be that low (below, say, 3000feet agl) but if they are, they should be listening out on a local frequency be it CTAF or the frequency that everyone uses when there isn't a published frequency and announcing their intentions.I think the CAAP is incorrect and unsafe but the AIP is quite clear. If you are at a busy 126.7 airfield and that frequency got shut down and the strip gets moved to a busy area frequency it could get really, really busy and confusing and dangerous. Area frequencies are really enroute frequencies, not terminal frequencies - that is what CTAFs are for.

If I take off from a paddock and start climbing to cruising altitude, surely it would be prudent to give a call on Area Frequency.

 

 

[metalman]

What is obvious is that a lot of certificate holders aren't mixing it up with RPT, Hervey is a good training ground for using the radio properly, two airfields on the same freq, several private strips , RPT , meatbombers, micro lights ,training and small charter, helos , and if you transmit on the wrong freq you may well kill someone, as I've said, it's very simple, in or approaching YHBA or YMYB you should be on the CTAF, otherwise it's the area , if your high enough bris radar, the same works anywhere, CTAF or airfield freq when in or approaching or a listening watch (flipping between the local and the area) as you transit, enroute use the area , tooling around on the multicom is ridiculous , in CTA use the relevant freq, if you want to know a busy spot try the corridor over the MCG in Melbourne .,,,,,,, essendon ,moorrabin ,point cook, meatbombers ,the Yarra valley traffic, are all converging to a very small piece of sky, if your unable to monitor what you need to it could be messy, it's busy but it's not dangerous if you do what your supposed to ,,,,,,and have your head on a swivel!

 

 

[frank marriott]

I don't think anyone suggested you shouldn't monitor the area freq (all the time if your aircraft is suitably equipped - I do) The point is the correct freq to announce your circuit time at an airfield/ALA.

 

This, in my opinion, should be done on multicom 126.7 outside a designated CTAF freq. area. In my experience this is what is happening - despite what the CAAP appears to suggest.

 

By way of example: At YBTL the area freq out to 36 DME is "Townsville Approach" freq. and should be monitored. All aircraft use 126.7 when operating OCTA and within this area (several unmarked private fields). Many don't monitor "approach" for various reasons but if approach suspects an aircraft may be heading into a restricted area or CTA they will call on 126.7 if no response is found on 126.8 (app freq) to ascertain your intentions.

 

 

[dazza 38]

If someone is trying to contact me on 126.7 when I am outside of a CTAF, I wont hear you as I will be on the Area frequency. I change over to the CTAF frequency a couple of minutes before entering a CTAF then I give a position report and intentions at the 10 NM boundary when entering.

 

 

[kaz3g]

ENR 1.4 3.2 says

 

• 3.2.1 The CTAF is the frequency on which pilots operating at a non-tow- ered aerodrome should make positional radio broadcasts. If a dis- crete frequency is not listed use Multicom 126.7MHZ. These fre- quencies are not normally monitored by ATS.
   
   
  
• 3.2.2 To achieve the greatest degree of safety, CAR 166C requires pilots of aircraft carrying a serviceable radio which they are qualified to use, to make a broadcast whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision with another air- craft at a non-towered aerodrome. In certain circumstances car- riage of radio and being qualified to use it are mandatory. Refer to ENR 1.1 Para 21.1 Summary Table, and CAAP 166-1(0).
   
   
  

 

 

Copyright © Airservices Australia 2013

 

So this is about non-towered aerodromes.. Not about Joe's paddock.

 

But riddle me this...

 

Locksley Field in Central Victoria is shown on the WAC and listed in ERSA as a CTAF with frequency 119.1. Longwood, 5 miles to the east of YLCS is shown on the WAC but not listed in ERSA and has a frequency listed in the AOPA guide of 126.7 yet it it within 10 miles of a designated CTAF frequency which requires a call on 119.1 if you comply with the AIP.

 

Then, just 9 miles from YLCS to the north east is Euroa. It's also just 9 miles from Longwood. Shown on the WAC but not listed in ERSA. No frequency listed in AOPA . No idea what frequency Euroa is using now other than the Area, but it used to be the gliding frequency 127.5.

 

Neither Longwood nor Euroa gets a lot use. Longwood is a winery and Euroa does some meat bombing. Both are located on the main Melbourne to Sydney rail line which is widely used by VFR traffic between Melbourne and Albury, and lots of military stuff going from Pucka to Holbrook at below 5000.

 

I would hope those pilots are monitoring the Area frequency up until the change to 119.1 for Locksley (and Mangalore) but I don't blame them if they are confused!

 

Kaz

 

 

[Neil_S]

ENR 1.4 3.2 says

• 3.2.1 The CTAF is the frequency on which pilots operating at a non-tow- ered aerodrome should make positional radio broadcasts. If a dis- crete frequency is not listed use Multicom 126.7MHZ. These fre- quencies are not normally monitored by ATS.
   
   
  
• 3.2.2 To achieve the greatest degree of safety, CAR 166C requires pilots of aircraft carrying a serviceable radio which they are qualified to use, to make a broadcast whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision with another air- craft at a non-towered aerodrome. In certain circumstances car- riage of radio and being qualified to use it are mandatory. Refer to ENR 1.1 Para 21.1 Summary Table, and CAAP 166-1(0).
   
   
  

 

 

Copyright © Airservices Australia 2013

 

So this is about non-towered aerodromes.. Not about Joe's paddock.

 

But riddle me this...

 

Locksley Field in Central Victoria is shown on the WAC and listed in ERSA as a CTAF with frequency 119.1. Longwood, 5 miles to the east of YLCS is shown on the WAC but not listed in ERSA and has a frequency listed in the AOPA guide of 126.7 yet it it within 10 miles of a designated CTAF frequency which requires a call on 119.1 if you comply with the AIP.

 

Then, just 9 miles from YLCS to the north east is Euroa. It's also just 9 miles from Longwood. Shown on the WAC but not listed in ERSA. No frequency listed in AOPA . No idea what frequency Euroa is using now other than the Area, but it used to be the gliding frequency 127.5.

 

Neither Longwood nor Euroa gets a lot use. Longwood is a winery and Euroa does some meat bombing. Both are located on the main Melbourne to Sydney rail line which is widely used by VFR traffic between Melbourne and Albury, and lots of military stuff going from Pucka to Holbrook at below 5000.

 

I would hope those pilots are monitoring the Area frequency up until the change to 119.1 for Locksley (and Mangalore) but I don't blame them if they are confused!

 

Kaz

Hi Kaz,

 

I believe Mangalore & Locksley Field are 121.1, not 119.1, but I totally agree with your point. I frequently fly that route when going from Penfield to Wangaratta exactly because it has a lot of small airfields in case the fan should stop, or some other reason where I would need to land quickly, but it does not seem to be a logical setup.

 

I actually switch to 126.7 when past Locksley Field and therefore 5 miles from Longwood, and stay on it for Euroa and Violet Town. Then I switch to Area Frequency until 10 miles from Benalla when I switch to 122.5, but Earlston airfield is shown on the VNC within 10nm of Benalla, but with no CTAF frequency. So this should really be 126.7 too.

 

So I flip to Area Frequency and listen, but then flip back to 126.7 when close to these small airfields.

 

CAAP 166-1(2) has the following definition for "In the vicinity"

 

:

 

An aircraft is in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome if it is within:

 

a) airspace other than controlled airspace;

 

and

 

b) a horizontal distance of 10 NM from the aerodrome (reference point); and

 

c) a height above the aerodrome (reference point) that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome.

 

The elevation of the land along that stretch is about 600 or 700 ft, so those airfields would have circuit heights (for small piston aircraft) of 1600 or 1700 ft, and the minimum overfly height would normally be about 1000 above that, ie 2600 or 2700. However, I am usually at quadrantal 3500 or 5500 heading East,

 

so the question remains if I am at 3500 or more whether I am deemed to be at a height "that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome" and therefore should just stay on Area Frequency? I know Euroa does parachute drops, so they must operate a lot higher than 2700 ft.......

 

Perhaps we should be requesting a better definition of a height "that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome", and if you are within the cylinder of 10nm radius and this defined height (let's say 1000 ft above circuit height, or 2000ft above the airfield elevation) then broadcast/listen on 126.7, but when you transit out of, or are about to go into, this cylinder a broadcast on Area Frequency with your position and intentions. It is not perfect, but perhaps a little clearer than the current documentation......

 

Cheers,

 

Neil

 

 

[djpacro]

I have just heard that this will be an agenda item for the next RAPAC Vic meeting this week.