Position Report, Feb Sport Pilot

[Guest ozzie]

Dr Zoos understand THIS> The RAAus must become a full on training organisation. It must not only administrate it must set up training schools and to do this it must be on a suitable airfield. We need highly skilled flying instructors to train instructors, we need highly trained maintenance instructors to train L1s to L4s and we need top class facilities to do it in. We won't get these in a pokey building in a suburb of Canberra.

 

It will become a centre to build upon from the annual gathering of Natfly to educational classes. The RAAus cannot achieve what CASA expects of them while it is in a pokey building that offers no room to grow. A White Elephant? That is what we now have.

 

 

[gandalph]

The city of Canberra (as in the legislative assembly), the Chamber of Commerce and the neighbours over the border in NSW do not want small airplanes in that part of the country. Fact. Not my opinion.Hmmmm I guess you have some evidence to support your "facts" Mnewbery? Care to present them here? No I'm not being provocative, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the evidence.

[Guest ozzie]

and i havent got my magazine yet for feb were we supposed to get 1 for january

There is no January Magazine

 

 

[DrZoos]

Dr Zoos understand THIS> The RAAus must become a full on training organisation. It must not only administrate it must set up training schools and to do this it must be on a suitable airfield. We need highly skilled flying instructors to train instructors, we need highly trained maintenance instructors to train L1s to L4s and we need top class facilities to do it in. We won't get these in a pokey building in a suburb of Canberra.It will become a center to build upon from the annual gathering of Natfly to educational classes. The RAAus cannot achieve what CASA expects of them while it is in a pokey building that offers no room to grow. A White Elephant? That is what we now have.

Yep, but to be effective at it it needs to take the courses to the members , not sit in one place and expect the members to make massive trips to them . Its cheaper and more successful to travel one or two experts to places near members then travel 9000+ members to the expert. This is no new issue. Its been the recognized most effective way of training and delivery for over 20 years now. Believe me training is my area of expertise. Centralized training is only cost and time effective where it involves long courses and low numbers of participants. And these days its only cost effective and time effective for practical aspects. all theory should be taught online these days for best cost outcomes and learning outcomes.

This is such an old school mentality , its seriously out of date and its incredibly ineffective.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I haven't done a lot of training, but thinking over what you have said, mine was most effective when it was decentralised. Bringing people in centrally tends to get a holiday atmosphere with the main object being the partying at night, so daytime training with people semi-comatose is harder, and it tends to produce bigger groups where the constant questioners tend to pull the faster ones down.

 

And since 300 of of the 10,000 vote, requiring them all to come to a central spot, in addition to requiring many loaves and fishes, is likely to result in more of them flying unlicensed.

 

 

[Guest Nobody]

I haven't done a lot of training, but thinking over what you have said, mine was most effective when it was decentralised. Bringing people in centrally tends to get a holiday atmosphere with the main object being the partying at night, so daytime training with people semi-comatose is harder, and it tends to produce bigger groups where the constant questioners tend to pull the faster ones down.And since 300 of of the 10,000 vote, requiring them all to come to a central spot, in addition to requiring many loaves and fishes, is likely to result in more of them flying unlicensed.

If you want to discourage a party atmosphere perhaps canberra is the right place....

 

 

[metalman]

Arent these guys just administrators. Why the hell do we need our office at an airport. Ffs this is the dumbest idea ive ever heard of. A complete waste of time and money. Deal with the real issues. Do people honestly think that just because RRA is at an airport we are all going to fly there, or they are going to suddenly have the resources to sit in a tea room and chat with us. Dumb dumb dumbThis white elephant scheme is distracting from things that need to be done and from the tasks RAA need to do better.

 

Perhaps its a deliberate ploy to give us something else to focus on.

Having a home office seems to work for the EAA, and it's a long way from everyone else, the problem with training is the schools can do whatever they want ,I've mentioned one Qld school that teaches stalling with the FI doing it and the student sitting there watching, if the FI were trained or at least signed off by a central office problems could be nipped in the bud before there's dozens of badly trained pilots around. As for where it is ,if we are to be a two sided coin with admin and sport then being on a field that we call home would serve to give us a focal point each year to gather, it could only be a good thing for the group ,as it is for the EAA

Matty

 

 

[winsor68]

Seems to me centralized training would be cheaper in this case for the membership...because RA-Aus doesn't pay (not should it) for those requiring training to travel to the facility.

 

 

[terryc]

I think everyone should re read ozzie's post because it appears to me by the responses nobody got the points he made. I might say I have never had any bad vibes from the instructors that I've had anything to do with nor have I found them to be slack in following the guidelines. In fact one went through the training manual point by point and rated my performance on each. That's not to say their aren't some that need to improve and that's where a centralized training facility wood be the better option. when an instructor has his bfrs and further training at his cost. The idea being to lift the standard of training without increasing the cost to raa. The problem I see is if you make the cost to high training costs rise then people can't or won't pay so our numbers decline and round and round we go.

 

 

[gandalph]

If you want to discourage a party atmosphere perhaps canberra is the right place....

 

 

[facthunter]

You need a quality of instruction to be maintained and some standardisation that will keep the rugged individualists from going amok.

 

This is the RAAus BIG problem. How does it cover this large continent? Taking responsibility for training standards is most likely unavoidable and how to do it well? I really have no more idea than I did years ago when we were much smaller and The chiefs got about with more audits. There used to be certain pilots of good standing that tested random people. ( Forget what they were called).

 

People prepare for the audit with all things looking good and revert to Police Academy 4 when it's over. It happens everywhere, not just RAAus. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

Regarding Canberra as a location, I think the thought music was to be near CASA .

 

Having a HQ like Oshkosh seems to work tor the EAA.

 

Flying into there (Canberra) has a few problems , at times (Terrain and weather) and there is no suitable room. It's off the main Highway anyhow. Temora has an Aviation aspect to it. Holbrook has a long History. West of the ranges is better for weather. (Corowa). Benalla is large and just off the Hume Highway...

 

Sydney basin is short of aerodromes, that are suitable. Being near a major city has accommodation and cheaper airfares. but you want a good aerodrome not too far out that is affordable which doesn't happen. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Party time is left for after receiving the certificate too much money invested to party every night that is the time to hit the books. if you want to party every night then you ain't the person for the job.

 

seems to me that if you want to become something in aviation you go somewhere and do an intense courses, ATPL,CPL LAME ect. All offer classroom and accommodation on site to allow for the student to immerse themselves without distraction.

 

A few realise the importance of this move some well they just thick as two bessa blocks.

 

 

[dazza 38]

You need a quality of instruction to be maintained and some standardisation that will keep the rugged individualists from going amok.This is the RAAus BIG problem. How does it cover this large continent? Taking responsibility for training standards is most likely unavoidable and how to do it well? I really have no more idea than I did years ago when we were much smaller and The chiefs got about with more audits. There used to be certain pilots of good standing that tested random people. ( Forget what they were called).

People prepare for the audit with all things looking good and revert to Police Academy 4 when it's over. It happens everywhere, not just RAAus. Nev

Hi Nev, I agree with every thing you have said. I was under the impression that PE - Pilot examiners , carry out the BFR on CFI's then CFI's carry out BFR's on Senior instructors. That way the high standards of Flying and instructional techniques should be tested and demonstrated .

 

 

[DrZoos]

The other huge problem of a centralized training facility in the bush or a regional area is its 6 commercial flights for anyone that needs to fly there. Eg take someone in Regional QLD. And assume RAA moved to Dubbo. The poor person in Regional QLD now has to get a flight to Brisbane to Sydney to Dubbo and then 3 return segments. So your up for 6 flights.

 

If you go the centralized model then it works best when its actually centralized relative to your transport infrastructure eg at a main hub like Sydney or Melb or Brisbane. The flights from Regional QLD to Brisbane and Syd to Dubbo are never cheap and this would likley be a $600 plus journey each way and an overnight stay at each end of the journey. It just doesnt work. Having a centralized training facility in a non centralized location is an absolute recipe for cost/ price disaster. Mind you this is why Canberra is not ideal either.

 

Also when RAAus runs a course whether its centralized or not they should be getting sufficient numbers to warrant running it. So lets say 8 is the minimum number to make it viable and its a one person facilitated course. Its far far cheaper to have the RAAus person travel and stay at the location close to the people then to have 8 people travel to RAAus with multiple flights and stopovers.

 

The centralized model is far more successful when used in a mobile platform . Eg: they decide this year they will run a course in three capital citys this year. Set the dates. Set the minimum numbers and a closing date for bookings thats far enough out for airline tickets to be booked once the course is confirmed. Require a deposit and then run the course in each city. Or at an airfield very close to a capital city . That way each state regional members can get one flight and then local transport or it is within flying distance. They also dont have the issue of connecting flights not lining up and this forced overnight extensions to their trip. And the multiplying factor of that cost for each recipient.

 

If a course is run at 9am to 5pm in say Temora. Your QLD person would have to fly to Brisbane and Sydney the day before. And hopefully then be able to get a connection to Temora the same day. If not they would need to leave two nights early. Do the course and the course would need to be finished in time for a flight to Sydney. Then they might get to brisbane that night for a stop over and then they fly home to regional QLD the next night. Its a silly situation to set your members up to experience this dillema over and over. And for people in the NT SA and WA plus TAs it would be even worse. It doesnt matter whether its a 1 or 10 day course it still ads transport dilemma to each end thats very expensive for all course students.

 

Winsor 68 - fully centralized is never cheaper and there is many methods of cost recovery for RAAus. It might mean RAAus doesnt buy the airfare. But if RAAus is going to travel to Bundaberg and put on a seminar for two nights the cost of the travel is built into the cost of the training. Its got to be done on a swings and roundabouts pricing method, where training for someone in Ballarat costs the same as Tawoomba. 8 people flying to a course and being accommodated is RARELY cheaper then 2 flying. The way costs are passed on is a matter for management. But distributed training doesnt mean RAAus and thus members have to pay for services given to a few.

 

 

[facthunter]

It gets very complex when you introduce single seat and rare types. It would take a fair bit of organising but I think numerous suitable areas (HUBS) over a period of time taking in seasonal weather etc would be the go. . Any person working for the RAAus ( PE's) would surely be treated well by a school trying to impress . LOL. You might want a few weeks in each location

 

This still leaves the consideration of Canberra as the HQ but it is not urgent,. Just something to consider one day maybe. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

Many years ago when I finished off my training with Skyfox Flight Training 1998. I asked the CFI who was also a PE how or who did his BFR, he said that there was another PE in SE QLD and they tested each other during a flight review. They didn't have a choice as there was nobody in the AUF/RAA with higher qualifications than them. Probably different now as this was a while back I guess

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The Toowoomba airport would be ideal for the RAA close to Brisbane and the excitement and glamour of the Gold Coast, large enough to dash8s. What more do you want?

 

 

[kgwilson]

It seems that there is a lot of variation in training methods and also what the student is permitted to do or should demonstrate competence in. e.g. the FI who performs all stalls. If this is happening how on earth is the student ever going to be competent in this area? Personally I think that if RA-Aus condones or is aware of this, it needs to get its house in order quick smart. There should be a standard syllabus that ALL instructors and schools must follow and sign off the student in a specific sequence. No ifs or buts. There should be basics and also certain options like side slips or spins which can be taught but may not be a good option in certain aircraft.

 

When I trained for my PPL in NZ I could go to virtually any Aero club or commercial school and the syllabus was the same. There are 36 separate instructor signoffs at the front of the CAA approved logbook. Any other is invalid & the licence would not be issued. This doesn't account for poor instruction or instructors milking the instruction time frames but the student must be competent in all aspect of the syllabus.

 

As to the other things leave the HQ where it is. The staff are there & so is CASA & they can all go to the pub together. Get things on line ASAP. That will resolve the documentation debacle. Get all the approved schools doing the same thing by setting mandatory minimums & getting out there more often to make sure. RA-Aus should do some training school audits & interview students & check their logbooks to see if there are any inconsistencies. End of rant.

 

 

[facthunter]

Being mates with CASA is not the way to go. Everything should be at arms length. No need for contest or confrontation, but everything done above board. You know where you stand. Duties and responsibilities defined. Had this been done we would not be where we are. with some of our difficulties

 

. On training standards I would argue our aircraft are NOT easier to fly then most GA and there should not be any dumbing down of flying skills. ( In fact they should be greater, it could be argued) because of the nature of some of the aircraft.. Since our operating environment is less complex the relaxation of costs and complexity would be in that area..Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

It is not only the cost and number of flights too get to a training session that has a bearing on the outcome. Just personally i am not going to travel and study for 3 days minimum for anything. It has to be able to be done in a day of travelling maximum. That means that to get info to members the instructors have to go to places they can gather. Have alook at what SAAA does with it's maintenance courses, spreads them around the country.

 

 

[facthunter]

And they have less members than we do. The courses are expensive though Yenn. Surely we can do a lot more over the Net. and SAAA don't do flying training (YET).. That will be a big deal because of the variation of types some of which it would be hard to find someone who had direct experience. It CAN be covered. Endorsements don't always need a commercial or instructor qualification. There can be exemptions although Our supreme leader thinks there shouldn't be any. . Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

Many years ago when I finished off my training with Skyfox Flight Training 1998. I asked the CFI who was also a PE how or who did his BFR, he said that there was another PE in SE QLD and they tested each other during a flight review. They didn't have a choice as there was nobody in the AUF/RAA with higher qualifications than them. Probably different now as this was a while back I guess

Reckon you'd find that is the case right now. happy days,

 

 

[poteroo]

Being mates with CASA is not the way to go. Everything should be at arms length. No need for contest or confrontation, but everything done above board. You know where you stand. Duties and responsibilities defined. Had this been done we would not be where we are. with some of our difficulties. On training standards I would argue our aircraft are NOT easier to fly then most GA and there should not be any dumbing down of flying skills. ( In fact they should be greater, it could be argued) because of the nature of some of the aircraft.. Since our operating environment is less complex the relaxation of costs and complexity would be in that area..Nev

RAAus syllabus, (See the Ops Manual), is based on the DAY VFR (CASA) publication. Generally, most RAAus FTF's follow both, but standardisation is happening. It should be that competencies are all determined to the same level..... but it's taken CASA 500+ pages to develop the MOS for their new CASR Part 61 changeover in September. So what hope have we?!! It should be that the identical student records are kept in each school too.

 

In an ideal world - RAAus students would be tested by a PE to ensure consistency. I said ideal, because this doesn't even happen in GA - the local CFI is also a CASA 'delegate' ATO - and so does their own PPL tests. CPL tests are done by an outside ATO or sometimes a CASA FOI. Many will disagree, but having the regulator, (or their closely controlled 'delegate'), do pilot tests is one proven way to hold standards. The FAA tests all new licence applicants in the US - not the CFI, or any delegates.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

It is not only the cost and number of flights too get to a training session that has a bearing on the outcome. Just personally i am not going to travel and study for 3 days minimum for anything. It has to be able to be done in a day of travelling maximum. That means that to get info to members the instructors have to go to places they can gather. Have alook at what SAAA does with it's maintenance courses, spreads them around the country.

Yen spreading the love around will happen down the track as the RAAus matures until then it needs to train people to the one standard under a controlled environment. The Raaus needs first to remove or retrain those who are now not teaching correctly. baby steps first.

The SAAA have been playing the game a lot longer and have in place a pretty good training program that every one must follow. The RAAus needs to have a good look at what the SAAA are doing right now. Hopefully all the infighting and animosity between the two will end with the changes taking place within the RAAus and they will see the light.