Which Trike to buy

[Admin]

Guys/Gals

 

Just thinking out loud if one that flys aircraft from a Gazelle, Jabiru and up to a CTsw and has no trike experience, other then a 1hr flight of shear fun and pleasure, what would they need to think about, consider, know if they were looking at buying a Trike?

 

Here you go, open invitation to tell me which trike and why, new or 2nd hand and why, what setup would be the ultimate and why, what accessories, avionics etc and why, etc etc etc.

 

You never know the CTsw in the site header and homepage just may get replaced with a picture of a trike (admin privilege ;))

 

Thanks!

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Ian,

 

As with anything, in Trikes its horses for courses.

 

I would have guessed that since you already have a fast glass machine you might be looking for something in a trike that would contrast that, ie, low & slow. If that's the case then the Airborne Redback would suit you well.

 

On the other hand, if you're looking for something to replace the CT no trike will ever achieve that for speed and endurance though the P&M Quik will come closest for speed and the Airborne XT-912 will come closest for endurance and can be trimmed to match a Gazelle for cruise speed 70kts @ approx 15L/hr.

 

I think most trikers tend towards Airborne purely for their well known aftermarket support and lightening fast parts availability/delivery with the factory being in Newcastle NSW.

 

What are you looking for in a trike?

 

I like the idea of the home page header.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Admin]

Thanks Glen

 

As I said i went up for an hour and I truly believe that it is the closest thing to flying like a bird - the wind in your face, nothing around you but air, aah the joys of flight!

 

I can see myself, again just thinking out loud, getting together with some others and going on some great sight seeing trips, low and slow but also fast enough to get to where the big enjoyment starts.

 

I wouldn't for one minute thing that a trike would ever come near that of the CT but it is all horses for courses and each one has a different type of fun. I like the idea of being able to trailer a trike if need be, also the idea of floats (maybe), the Ramos caught my eye until I found out who the agent is but still floats would be great to have when you want to do a water trip. But I also like the idea of the tundras to be able to get onto the beaches, patches of dirt etc (if that is allowed in trikes).

 

As I said just thinking out loud but you never know I am just as likely to one day ring up someone and say I will have one of those so I want to be prepared with all the info on what I would want to have - does that make sense?

 

The freedom you guys have makes me envious!

 

 

[Captain]

Ian

 

I have a friend who just lands his Airborne in the 200 m long paddock beside my house. Geez I'm envious of that.

 

I think the key decisions are brand, engine type & wing type.

 

I love 'em with the 912 in 'em ... but that's budget too.

 

Glen

 

What are the latest wing designs like in thermal ridden country like we have out here in summer?

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Guest MundooTriker]

I currently fly the Airborne Redback, which flys very well, just slow. The holden Blimp was up this way and it was overtaking me. I landed before the inevitable though. It is however enjoyable for Take off / landing. Patience is required if you want to go anywhere.

 

I am looking to upgrade and the Airborne Outback with Streak is on my radar. I am however very interested in Pegasus, DTA, Aircreation equivalents. From what I understand from a price perspective Airborne is still the most cost competive option and still provide a quality trike. Also the customer service is based permanently in Australia.

 

I am interested to hear from foreign trike flyers and their experiences .

 

 

[Admin]

Just had a lengthy phone conversation with Airborne on the XT-912 - I like it - $60k though.

 

Yes, I think the right trike might get added to the header on the site ;) and AirBorne had already put a link on their site to this one which goes in their favor!

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Ian

 

I fly trikes (Airborne Edge X/ Streak wing) and the Jabiru J230.

 

The pluses to the trike are that in Feb in SA, at about 6pm when its still 35 outside plus there is nothing like cruising in the trike at 3-4kft in Teeshirt and shorts taking advantage of the adiabatic cooling, watching all the peasants below do their thing. :). As to the disadvantages, and they may or may not appear to be disadvantages to you:-

 

1) In winter, despite the right clothing its still cold. In Vic and SA that would be Damn cold, the type of cold that see you nose constantly running, but you cant feel it cold.

 

2) Generally trike flying is a much more physical experience than 3 axis. 1 hrs flight in turbulence can see your arms being well worked out. So much so that the prospect of breaking down the trike and trailering home can seem to be something not to look forward to.

 

3) Turbulence in a trike is a much more physical activity when compared to that in a 3 axis aircraft. Trikes wing loading per square meter is much less than a 3 axis and as such any turbulence is magnified. If turbulence doesn't worry you, then thats fine, but I don't suggest taking a friend up in one when its turbulent, especially if you have an expectation that you would like he/she to go at another time. As a result most trikers fly between 7am and 10am. After that the turb increases.

 

4) Speed is a relative thing in trikes. All wings have a trim speed, that is the speed at which the wing can fly without abnormal amounts of holding in a pitch adjustment. While its been a while since I was in an XT I seem to recall that 70kts might require a bit of constant bar into the chest. All of which generally is unsustainable in the long run(ie you wouldn't fly for an hour at the higher speeds, unless gym work is your thing!). I would have thought 60-65 is more like the right trim speed for the latest iteration of the streak wing.

 

While it may be that the J230 is newer to me than the trike, (Jabirus only this year, trikes for 4 years or so) I have found that I have used the trike infrequently when compared to the J230.

 

Now all that said, its impossible to compare a shetland pony with a racehorse, unless of course you have a specific need against which to compare. Recreational flying is just for fun. Fun can be had with any Aircraft and as a recreational flyer, subject to safety, I want to try as much as possible. So for the other trikers who read this post, Im not bagging trikes, just ensuring that the good and bad aspects are known (where Good and Bad are relative to your own point of reference).

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest disperse]

i spent a fair bit of time looking at every single trike i could possibly googlesearch and came up with 2 airborne and p& m finally decided that the xt912 won honours

 

simply because it is more robust, and a local product

 

582 v 912 ... MONEY about $15000+ difference in the second hand market

 

912...wins on speed , range , noise , OH times etc but it's a good dash more in price

 

582 wins on price ..but can do everything you want it to do.. even touring , it's just a bit less in ability accross the board

 

me personaly would of bought a trike with a pod (i would of been doing some touring)...and more room for the TOY'S

 

WINGS.... don't waste your time , go straight for the best...other wise you will be buying a new wing within 12mths of buying the trike

 

NEW / USED ad ref #936 in the july edition of RA mag. xt912 TT 72 hrs but a cruize wing..... saving $9500. and others come up all the time and all seem to be around the 50k mark. but then again there's nothing like that new car smell

 

these are the conclusions i came to hope it helps Troy

 

ps ive been wrong before and it may happen again some day

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

912...wins on speed , range , noise , OH times etc but it's a good dash more in price582 wins on price ..but can do everything you want it to do.. even touring , it's just a bit less in ability accross the board\

 

.......

 

WINGS.... don't waste your time , go straight for the best...other wise you will be buying a new wing within 12mths of buying the trike

Actually Im a bit of a synic when it comes to Airbornes wings. While there have been some evolution along the way I suggest that if you were to look at the specs for the original streak wing, and then compare it with the specs for the streak 3 you'll see that the trim speed for both are the same )streak 1 forward hole =65kts). Personally 65kts on a 582 with a brolga prop sees the engine working up near max take off RPMs and to me is probably going to impact negatively on engine life, certainly on fuel efficiency. A Bolly 3 blade optima (which is what is used on the XT) matches very well with the 582. The problem being that the Aircraft wasnt certified with that prop. But then again if speed is the name of the game dont fly trikes :)

 

Andy

 

 

[eastmeg2]

I currently fly both Edge X Streak-1 and XT Streak-3. The Streak-1 trims at 48kts hands off and the Streak-3 56kts hands off. Without any ground adjustment to the wing the Streak3 Andy is correct in saying that a comfortable sustainable amount of pressure on the bar sees you cruising at 60-65kts. There are a couple of ground adjustments that can be made to make the wing trim faster.

 

1. Use the front hangpoint hole. (Simplest)

 

2. Move the whole hangpoint to it's foreward position on the keel, this requires some unbolting-rebolting and preferably after some instruction from Airborne on how to do it correctly.

 

Given that the Streak-3 does about 75kts straight and level with 5000rpm on the 912 (mine will rev to 5500rpm at that speed), I don't see why you could not make one or both of the above adjustments to your Streak-3 to increase your hands-off trim speed up from it's 56kts and probably making 70kts sustainable on a long x-country.

 

I've not tried either of these adjustments so can't say exactly how much difference they will make, nor can I see myself doing it in the near future as our main strip is 500m but has obstacles at the Northern end and our cross strip at 300m has more obstables.

 

Perhaps one day when I have no choice but to fly into a 30kt headwind between decent airports.

 

Rgds,

 

Glen

 

 

[eastmeg2]

A separate post for the relative handing and stability of Streak-1 versus Streak3.

 

The Streak-3 has much light pitch control forces than the Streak-1, making it easier to pull on more speed from it's already higher trim speed.

 

The Streak-3 also holds a straight line much better than the Streak-1 in turbulence and requires lighter control corrections in turbulence. Vertical bumps and pitching up/down in turbulence is also greatly reduced.

 

I've found that I can safely land in stronger winds at our strip with the Streak-3, but have be careful I don't pack on too much speed otherwise our 500m won't be enough.

 

Rgds,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Glen

 

Thanks for pointing out the differences between 1 and 3, I didnt spend enough time behind the 3 to notice any real difference. The time I did spend was sufficient to for me to determine that I was never going to get rid of the 1 and pay to replace it with a 3 unless I won Lotto and was just looking for any excuse to spend money.... If that were to be the case then I think a cirrus aeroplane is much more likely than an update from a streak 1 to a streak 3....:big_grin:. Though that said 500m could be a real challenge in a cirrus ;)

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Baphomet]

It's not a trike, but if you like the open air feel, go for a flight in a Drifter (front seat). You can get into one for a lot less than $60,000

 

 

[Admin]

It's not a trike, but if you like the open air feel, go for a flight in a Drifter (front seat). You can get into one for a lot less than $60,000

- but I can't do anything to upset my Gazelle - might end up with some bitching going on in the hangar at night "I am sleeker then you"...."well at least I'm not a broomstick dressed in drag" :black_eye: ...."Now c'mon you two stop ya bitching, we all know that the CTsw is the best of us all"

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

You can get into one for a lot less than $60,000

You certainly can but its not really a fair comparison. You can buy a few year old 582 Edge for <$20K which is the same ballpark as a 2nd hand Drifter. $60K gets you a brand new, factory built, 912 trike. Whilst that is what I bought I would be first to admit that I don't have 3 times as much fun in it as my friends do in their cheaper trikes.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Admin]

Whilst that is what I bought I would be first to admit that I don't have 3 times as much fun in it as my friends do in their cheaper trikes.

Please John can you expand on this - most interested with that statement i.e. is their a sacrifice of fun for such things as speed, solidness etc.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

My view on Johns comments is that I totally agree. When I bought my Edge X/ Streak 1 combo I paid $27k.

 

A friend of mine, not that much longer after, bought a much cheaper (about 50% of what I paid from memory) version of a trike that predated the edge X (Buzzard??). He spent a few extra $ on restoring it to nearly new. The wing that came with his was a relatively new streak 1 wing and the reality today is that he doesn't get any less enjoyment than I do or our instructor who flys in a new XT. We all cruise about the same speed, get impacted in the same way by turbulence and generally enjoy ourself in the same way.

 

The reality of trikes are that the subcomponents in order of importance are:-

 

1) The wing. This defines the speed of the total package and most of the handling characteristics in turbulence / cross wind etc. More capability/flexibility = More cost when comparing new with new

 

2) The motor. This defines the fuel economy and reliability. More capability = more cost, new for new

 

3) The prop. Engine power isn't that useful if it cant be efficiently turned into something we can use. In reality there isn't so much choice in this space if you with the remain within the bounds of the 32 registration (RAA) or T2 rego (HGFA)

 

4) The Trike base with all its various add ons. At the end of the day the base has the least effect on the flying characteristics, though bad design choices can impact on ground handling etc.

 

So in summary if item 1) is common between a group of flyer's then the other choices merely impact on max duration, reliability and comfort. To get better outcomes will require more money to be spent. If your bladder defines max duration, and in a trike that will definitely be the case, then duration beyond that is the realm of bragging rights only:)

 

My view, after looking at some of the various trikes on offer around the world is that Airborne are not trike innovators, rather they tend to use what others find in their evolution, that said the products they produce are robust and generally of good quality. If there isn't a need to send your money out of the country, then why do it when the Australian product is not that far from the forerunners

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest disperse]

if i bought a trike instead of 3axis, i would of wanted to do a lot of touring in it

 

there for i would have spent the extra cash on a 912

 

if i was just blasting around on the weekend with the occasional trip id spend 25 to 30 grand on a near new 2nd handy and the money i saved would pay the running cost's for a long long time

 

ps can i have a go when you get one.....PLEASE

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Please John can you expand on this - most interested with that statement i.e. is their a sacrifice of fun for such things as speed, solidness etc.

Hi Ian

 

I took too long typing a lengthy reply, got logged out and lost it all so please forgive a very short response !

 

I didn't mean to suggest that a better trike is less fun than a more basic one. Let me use your own aircraft as an example - the CT is approx 3 times the price of your Gazelle. Do you enjoy flying the CT three times as much as you do flying the Gazelle ? The CT is much "better" in the sense of faster speed, climb rate, equipment etc - you might enjoy flying it more than the Gazelle but I suspect not three times as much.

 

So if you evaulate your aircraft ownership in terms of enjoyment per dollar which is better value ?

 

Hope that helps !

 

John

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

My view, after looking at some of the various trikes on offer around the world is that Airborne are not trike innovators, rather they tend to use what others find in their evolution, that said the products they produce are robust and generally of good quality. If there isn't a need to send your money out of the country, then why do it when the Australian product is not that far from the forerunners Andy

I think that's a fair comment Andy. Some of their early models weren't as good as the European trikes of the same era but they probably didn't need to be at that time.

 

When I first flew the XTS912 (2004), I considered it to be on a par with the best European trikes at that time. Certainly not as fast as a Quik but not intended to be and nicer to fly IMO. European trikes have moved on a little since then Eg PegAir GT450 and Air Creation Tanarg - unfortunately I've not had chance to fly these yet so I can't comment but Airborne sell the XT in the UK and France so it can't be totally outclassed.

 

Trikes are a relatively small market in Aus so I guess its difficult for importing from an overseas manufacturer to be financially feasible - there seem to have been a few importers come & go over the years. I think most European manufacturers could ship spares out here relatively quickly but there is a degree of reassurance knowing that the manufacturer isn't the other side of the planet.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Perhaps not 300% better but it's certainly a significant difference, otherwise they wouldn't sell.

 

My experience has been that virtually every trike pilot I know who has had a fly of a 912 has suddenly become like a drug addict looking for a way to get more of the same.

 

This weekend's looking rather promising . . .

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Trike flyers,

 

I know this is the wrong place to talk about a pusher prop....however Andys@gawler mentioned Bolly Optima 3blade to suit a Rotax 582....

 

I have a brand new prop as above (well close to)...used exactly 2 hours on a drifter just a few hours before some one rang to buy the aircraft....so back went the original prop.....It cost around $1500 new and I would consider all reasonable offers.

 

On the drifter it was smooth and a lot less noisy... specs as follows..

 

Suit a 2.62 gearbox...ground adjustable...62x52 RH 60"

 

I will post on the for sale a little later.

 

Cheers

 

JL

 

PS. A factory built Fisher MK1 912 Demo model purchased at 25 hrs., with flaps, aerobatic reinforcement (NOT USED), helicopter type canopy, stacks of functional extras including radio instruments etc, 1500 fpm climb, 64kt cruise, easy 70kt in smooth air, 9.7 lt per hour @max all up weight, cost around $55,000.....Magic aircraft!! Can,t transport it though.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

My experience has been that virtually every trike pilot I know who has had a fly of a 912 has suddenly become like a drug addict looking for a way to get more of the same.

Thats true in my experience also but I bet most of them who get a 912 will do very few, if any, flights that they couldn't do in their pevious trikes ;-)

 

Hope you get some decent weather this weekend

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

.....will do very few, if any, flights that they couldn't do in their previous trikes ;-)

At the end of the day its like comparing a 10 year old falcon with a new falcon. The newer one is better, everyone knows that, in fact the marketing people are only too keen to tell us over and over that that is the case, just on the off chance that sanity and logic might bubble to the surface and we really discover that the 10 year old falcon can do pretty well everything the new one does, and you don't need to grow your mortgage to support it.

 

At the end of the day our western economy demands that the new one be better whether it is or not. Womens hair shampoo adds are clear examples of technobabble pseudo science at play ensuring that we constantly understand that new soap is much better than last years soap...

 

In trike land the model to model evolution adds less than 10% additional capability model to model and I think 10% is generous. Given that a model probably has a 5+yr life it'll be a few before you'll really get huge benefits out of upgrading, or ignoring the 2nd hand market.

 

Now, in keeping up with the western style economy, and destroying any credibility that I had up until now, anyone want to buy an edge X/ Streak combo :big_grin: (actually prior to this thread even starting I was going to sell, using this weekend for the obligatory photos of the trike and its trailer)

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Congratulations Andy - I wouldn't have believed it was possible to mention womens shampoo in a thread on trikes :-)) But your observation is quite correct !

 

Good luck selling the trike - are you planning on keeping current in weightshift (just curious) ?

 

John