Which Trike to buy

[Guest Andys@coffs]

- are you planning on keeping current in weightshift (just curious) ?John

John

 

Yeah, I think so, I share my hanger with another trike, and despite the rest of the trikers seriously thinking of excommunicating me from the group due blasphemous thoughts of 3 axis superiority, I think friendship will win over and I'll still be allowed mix with them.

 

To be honest I'll sell if the opportunity presents and if not then I wont be unhappy to keep it.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I don't know if its reason for optimisim but one of the YCAB trikers now flies a Drifter. We consider it a honourary weightshift & still let him fly with us ;-)

 

Actually about half the trikers here also have 3-axis ratings and, now that training is available, a few 3-axis pilots are interested in doing conversions to trikes. Can't beat the best of both worlds !

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Perry]

Ian,

 

I am going to be the different one here and describe my rig - it is European; shod with the Rotax 912S 100HP; has a wing with a performance envelope from 40kts through to 75kts with exceptional manners; Loves yukky weather; has 3-way braking and suspension; is as light as a feather (216kg); fitted with proper 6" aero wheels; fitted with inflight electric trim that gives you a speed range from 45kts through to 65kts in neutral - no input required apart from touching the toggle switch; can carry 2 people sitting in upright comfort without having to be bent 3 ways to get under the mast; does not have a front strut to get in the way of photographs; can get you up to 7 hours endurance whilst sipping 95 at 9litres an hour; has an absurd climb rate in excess of 1600fpm; it is also shod with an aeroelastic composite prop providing optimal climb and cruise by changing prop shape/pitch and is a real beauty to look at....

 

A aerial version of a Hummer...

 

We have notched up 170 glorious hours in absolute comfort and fall further in love with it every time we fly it. We also purchased it with detachable 80litre pannier bags allowing us to carry all our camping gear without having to bung stuff into the wing (as has been witnessed with others).

 

Sure it will set you back around $80k but we were prepared to lash out the extra as my long-term passenger is worth more than $20k extra for long distance comfort. The nice thing is the price was inclusive of all instruments and accessories - no hidden extras.

 

By the way, after sales service has been exceptional with all A/D's and minor updates sent for free and spares from Europe take as long as the express post will allow - usually within a week it is here.

 

Can anyone recall what trike it is?

 

Ian if you are up North, give us a shout and I will let you loose on the controls - only one problem, once hooked you will not let it go...

 

Regards

 

Perry

 

[ATTACH]3314.vB[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]3315.vB[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

 

[vk3auu]

I might respectfully suggest that at around the 9 litre per hour fuel consumption a 912S or UL is a bit of overkill and in the long run may even be detrimental to its health.

 

If you really want low and slow wind in your face flying get yourself something with a Wizard or dare I say a Buzzard wing and go Reeel slow. That way you will be able to enjoy the scenery without it flashing past.

 

David

 

 

[Guest Perry]

David

 

I might respectfully suggest that at around the 9 litre per hour fuel consumption a 912S or UL is a bit of overkill and in the long run may even be detrimental to its health.

Measurements taken on properly calibrated MGL FF1 and various observation on long cross country expeditions.

My 912ULSFR runs happily between 3,800 and 4,300rpm with Oil Temp at between 100 and 110degC, Oil Press around 3 bar and CHT in the high 80's. All my filter cuts thus far have shown no metallic filings as well as the magnet is clean. All plugs show good colour and the carbies are kept well balanced using a good quality manometer. Filters are cleaned every 20 hrs as well to keep consumption consistent. I have invested many hours into researching the Rotax 9 series as it is quite a beast if not looked after properly - I too was worried about running one of these machines at between 50 and 55% in cruise.

 

Interestingly, the sister plane to mine is sitting at 750 hrs without a hitch and one of our African counterparts has logged over 2,000 hours trouble free with it reaching its 1,600 hour TBO without trouble.

 

The key to enduring engine health on the 9 series Rotax machine is cleanliness combined with good quality fuel, timely oil changes, balanced carbies and ensuring that your temperatures are kept in the recommended levels without too much variance. Note that most 9 series machines fitted to trikes are recommended to be installed with both water and oil thermostats to ensure stable temperature ranges due to the fact that they are not enclosed in an engine cowl. Many trikers blank off a section of the oil cooler during colder conditions as a means to get around the expense of the oil thermostat.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Regards

 

Perry

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I might respectfully suggest that at around the 9 litre per hour fuel consumption a 912S or UL is a bit of overkill and in the long run may even be detrimental to its health. David

Perry,

 

I think the point that David was making is as follows:-

 

A modern wing / trike combo, one up, can cruise quite comfortably on a 503 rotax. In other words the necessary cruise hp is probably around 35hp mark. As such the 100hp that a 912S can produce is a bit more than truely necessary. traditionally (3 axis and historically within Trikes) cruise is around 65-85% of max hp for an engine. With a climb rate of 1600fpm 75% of a 912S probably has you doing much more climb than level cruise.

 

Davids point I think is that the 912S is overkill for the job at hand, having flown the XT 2 up, (80hp 912) and feeling that the climb performance was pretty spectacular, I also would doubt that a 912S, one up would ever be called on to provide more than 75% of max hp, quite contrary to the load that the 912 engineers expected to be called on.

 

Within the jabiru world you'll often hear people say, dont baby the engine, load it up to the cruise Hp that the manufacturers expected it would be required to produce. The reason its said is that babying the engine can have negative impacts on reliability. I think David was saying the same may be true of the rotax beasts.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

[Brett]

I have also heard something similar about the smaller lycombing 118 horse motors ,,,they say that they need to be cruised at 75% or above as fuel from blow by possibly can build up in the oil and affects the overall life, as the oil i guess deteriorates b4 the due oil change time.I assume the higher cruise setting runs the oil at a higher temp thus evaporating the fuel from the sump.

 

 

[vk3auu]

I am glad to see that your oil temp is running around the 100 degree mark. My old 912 which came out of an aeroplane which suffered from poor warm up and probably cool running took quite a while to get all the water boiled out of the oil after if seized a big end and broke a rod. (Not in my hands) My radiator is generally fairly well blanked off during the cold months to keep the oil temperature up.

 

I suspect that quite a few engines suffer from what I might refer to as sub-optimal lubrication due to lower than optimum temperature operation and/or water contamination, even in air cooled engines.

 

David

 

 

[Guest Perry]

David,

 

Yep - we have seen that on an old Pegasus Qantam 912 as well. Gotta keep the oil temp up and prevent the water temp from going over the top. My advanced maintenance DVD's cite that temperatures need to get higher than 100DegC so that any moisture collected in the sump pot is actually boiled off and corrosion on the crank and bearings is inhibited.

 

If you have trouble with a cold machine invest in the thermostat - it is well worth it and regulates the temperature to a band between 100 and 110DegC in cruise.

 

Andy,

 

We have both the 912ULFR and 912ULSFR up here. Whilst you may perceive the 100hp powerplant to be an overkill, we have found that it is perfectly suited to the DTA frame (oops let the manufacturer out of the bag there). The reason is simple - when fully loaded with fuel, pax and camping gear we have found the 80hp performance to be on the limit and somewhat sluggish for short field capabilities (which is what we find a lot of up here). With the extra 20 ponies we can still maintain a respectable climb rate and spend a bare minimum time in the danger zone below 300ft at MTOW. The 100hp powerplant is matched in weight for the 80hp and consumption is not far off - for the extra couple of bikkies it is well worth it. We have also found a far smoother idle with the standard slipper clutch on the gearbox leading to less low-end vibration.

 

Note that these trikes are certified for a range of two stroke and four stroke powerplants so the user gets to choose his donk for the same airframe.

 

The other big advantage is a lifty wing affording the pilot to drift between 40 and 45kts at cruise and not suffer the unenviable position of being close to a stall as I have found with the lower drag quicker wings. The performance envelope is of the widest I have come across and I could attribute that to the carefully cambered wing with very true lines, expecially at the washout.

 

If you get a chance to get up here, come and have a ride?

 

Regards

 

Perry

 

 

[Guest MundooTriker]

Hello Perry,

 

If you ever head north to Innisfail I'd like the opportunity to catch up.

 

Regards Andrew

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Perry

 

Understand and dont disagree with your logic regarding "max take of weight (MTOW) " flying, My point related to the fact that most of us rarely fly at MTOW which is why I qualified my comments with the "One Up" addition.

 

Unless the DTA is significantly different from a weight or drag perspective I doubt that it will require significantly more hp to cruise "One up" than other similar trike offerings. I also presume that for most people the majority of their flying will be one up without additional fuel or load. That being true (and thats a Q, not a statement of fact :)) the 100hp motor probably wont be called on to deliver more than 35-50hp for the majority of the time the engine is run.

 

I guess Davids and my question is, will this have any longer term downside to engine reliability and or life given the designers probably expected it to run at 75% in cruise, or there abouts.

 

If in fact you do fly most/ all of your hours at or near MTOW, thus requiring teh 75% then my comments may not be relevant to you.

 

By the way, what is MTOW for a DTA and what is the empty weight of one? I would expect it to be quite different to the Airborne weights to justify a need of 75hp to cruise.

 

As to trying one out, Yep, in a heart beat, after all, I may then be partially qualified to even comment on one :big_grin:. but as to buying one.... I thought the price for an XT was over the top... so to add another 20k or so.... Not for me Im afraid, unless it can:-

 

1) do 120kts or more,

 

2) have a range of more than 6hrs

 

3) keep me warm when its cold outside

 

4) make me coffee on the go.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

[eastmeg2]

I am glad to see that your oil temp is running around the 100 degree mark. My old 912 which came out of an aeroplane which suffered from poor warm up and probably cool running took quite a while to get all the water boiled out of the oil after if seized a big end and broke a rod. (Not in my hands) My radiator is generally fairly well blanked off during the cold months to keep the oil temperature up. I suspect that quite a few engines suffer from what I might refer to as sub-optimal lubrication due to lower than optimum temperature operation and/or water contamination, even in air cooled engines.

 

David

These are great notes on this forum. I can say that when flying my 912 this weekend in the Goulburn area I noticed my oil temp tended to sit at about 75 celcius. I didn't take to much notice of it since the minimum take off temp is listed as 50 celcius.

 

I'll take more care to ensure it reaches 100 celcuis on a regular basis in future.

 

Back in 2004 when I saw the FreedomFlight Trikes with 912UL's I noticed they also had cable operated blanking flaps on the oil coolers.

 

Probably also worth noting that a Carbon sting crashed near my area due to it's 912s putting a conrod through the block, though I think that was in the warmer months . . . ?

 

Rgds,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest Perry]

Folks,

 

The most interesting thread I have participated in on this web.

 

I also presume that for most people the majority of their flying will be one up without additional fuel or load. That being true (and thats a Q, not a statement of fact :)) the 100hp motor probably wont be called on to deliver more than 35-50hp for the majority of the time the engine is run.

Andy, I failed to perhaps make what I believe to be the most important point regarding the purchase of an aircraft - intended use. My wife and I are inseperable and approximately 95% of our flying is done two-up with full tanks and gear. We had an Airborne two stroke trike to start with and it was impossible to do what we do presently in a safe manner. I have found most other trikers to be solitary beings that rarely carry passengers especially their partners as you have described. I firmly believe that your selection should be fit-for-purpose. We spend most of our time cross country with very few short flips - the 912S does exactly what we need.

 

Your perception that the four stroke will only be working at 50hp is a wee bit low - at cruise (4000 rpm) the powerplant is churning just over 60hp for a 912S. At climb out one will call on all the power the engine has whatever the weight.

 

As for engine longevity and health, I have spent considerable time researching the care of the Rotax 9 Series machines. There is very limited account if any of a 912S suffering early failure due to light loading.

 

Here comes the technobabble so switch off if it gets too much:

 

Most failures at the piston have been attributed to poor fuel selection (in some cases Australian 95 is the bare minimum and sometimes too inferior as the AKI (anti-knock index -average of the RON and MON) is only set at a minimum of 95 and 82 respectively giving an AKI of less than 90. Considering that the AKI recommended by Rotax for the S is 91 (Operating manual page 13-1). When using a lower AKI, the engine has a tendency to pre-ignite leading to excessive localised heating in the barrel and cylinder head. Owing to the pistons being cast and not drop forged combined with the higher compression ratio, there is an increased risk of burning a hole in the piston head and failing the machine. Always be careful to keep an eye on CHT if you are unsure of fuel RON/MON.

 

The other 912S crank killer is low speed vibration due to the engine configuration - this is smoothed out by the slipper clutch. The vibration can have catastrophic consequences on the crank - keep RPM above 2200 if you can. Always keep the prop balanced. This affects the gearbox, crank and bearings.

 

My Rotax contacts from other parts of the globe all assure us that running the engine at 4000rpm (50KW/67HP) - check the curve on the Operations Manual - has no negative consequences on the condition and longevity of the motor - on the proviso that it is kept to temperature.

 

My recommendation to all trikers with all 4 strokes whatever the trike - keep the oil temperature above 100DegC for at least 10 minutes of each flight. To this end spend the $$ and install an oil thermostat.

 

Hope this helps and apologies for taking the thread beyond choice of trike.

 

Regards

 

Perry

 

 

[Guest Perry]

Andy,

 

Forgot to add the DTA dry weight - mine is placarded at 216kg. Not sure what the Airborne XT is? MTOW with GRS/BRS is 472.5kg.

 

For the Atlantic Crossing, it was cleared for an MTOW of 600kg for the additional fuel.

 

Regards

 

Perry

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Perry

 

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not qualified to talk about the 912 range as I've never owned one. If you think running it under the 75% for long periods wont damage it then thats fine.

 

The fuel issue is interesting, and the reason I chose the Jabiru engine. AVGAS is readily available at Airports, high octane unleaded (or standard unleaded for that matter) is more difficult to come by at most airports.

 

The weights you provide tell me that the XT and the DTA are within lbs in terms of what the useful load is and within kts of what the max trim speeds are. The 4000 rpm you discuss, producing just over 60hp would suit, in terms of the 75% cruise hp the standard 912 perfectly. Of course if it doesn't work for you and your partner 2 up on short strips then choosing the 100hp motor would seem the obvious solution.... Now any plans to try out the 914.... I'm told that cruising in an open cockpit at 10k+ ft in FNQ is very pleasant:) in SA, in winter that would be truly miserable.( not to mention a tad illegal for both areas)

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Perry]

Andy,

 

Interesting you mention that - as a matter of fact we are working on a mod on a different continent that turns the engine into the proverbial paperweight. Having a bunch of inefficient carbies on such a sweet machine is a heart breaker. Some of us are playing with a bolt on fuel injection mod with twin ECU that should make a much smoother machine, improve the delivery and producing a notable increase in power for greater efficiency. We are beta testing on a peggy with a 912UL.

 

Imagine if you could get a 912UL with 110HP and a 6-7lph consumption with a smooth fuel delivery? Furthermore we could get better altitude compensation improving efficiency. This could render the more expensive higher compression 912S obsolete.

 

Strange that Rotax employ MPFI in the Aprillia Units and Snow Machines?

 

914 is for slippy fixed wings...

 

Regards

 

Perry

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

914 is for slippy fixed wings...

And for trikes towing hang-gliders over Everest ! http://www.flymicro.com/everest/

 

John

 

 

[Admin]

Folks,The most interesting thread I have participated in on this web.

 

Perry

Perry, if we can get more trikers here I hope we can have many more interesting threads on trikes - the infrastructure is here, the support is here and the interest is definitley here - I have also found this thread a great learning curve - I am somewhat more confused but coming up to speed on trikes.

Had a ride in a Drifter the other day (thanks Sonny) and I am now more convinced that the next aircraft I get is going to be a Trike - there is nothing like flying like a bird and a trike comes the closest.

 

I am going to start looking at getting endorsed first before I jump in and buy as the time will enable me to gather more info and get to know more trikers down here although learning in my own trike would have its advantages.

 

Thanks all for your "uplifting" info!

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I am going to start looking at getting endorsed first before I jump in and buy as the time will enable me to gather more info and get to know more trikers down here although learning in my own trike would have its advantages.

Its great that you are so keen on trikes Ian - I think learning first is a good plan so you will be much better informed when in comes to making a decision about purchasing one.

 

Look forward to hearing how you get on

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[ZULU1]

Buy a trike..

 

Ian, back to the original thread, I have been flying (tin aeries) for almost 20 years and trikes now for about 10 years. I still fly fixed wings but not as much anymore. This is merely a personal flying enjoyment "thing" and most definitely not a knock on those machines.

 

I very often fuel up my trike and solo head for the hills, ipod on and as I have nearly seven hours endurance..you just cant beat it..

 

As for choice of trike, well I have a Solo wings Aquilla (same as freedom flight with HKS 700e) its fine,cruises well, but I still enjoy a mates 503 windlass with no instruments, no panniers, small fuel tank and (well) run in wing, pull start, extra light, low tech and basically a powered hang glider. I just fly it with a ipod, ear defenders and thermal it for hours. Its also in the Gliding centre of SA (Ladysmith).

 

They are the best in the west..not unlike the UK chaser.

 

As Perry stated this is the best thread for ages.

 

As for your choice as you have a small fix wing and will be flying in the patch, why not look at a single seater ?? Truly selfish..

 

The DTA is awesome, one day when I am big ??

 

Paul

 

 

[bushpilot]

As for choice of trike, well I have a Solo wings Aquilla (same as freedom flight with HKS 700e) its fine,cruises well, but I still enjoy a mates 503 windlass with no instruments, no panniers, small fuel tank and (well) run in wing, pull start, extra light, low tech and basically a powered hang glider. I just fly it with a ipod, ear defenders and thermal it for hours. Its also in the Gliding centre of SA (Ladysmith).

Couldn't agree more! My 503 is bolted into an Airborne Redback - so not quite as basic as you describe the Windlass - but it is still a 'heavy' version of a powered hang-glider.. Just pull that cord and head for the sky. Like today - almost nil wind, 20oC at ground level; I stooged around the district (farming land mostly) for an hour - then practised power off (idle) landings onto my strip - 6 of them from different approach angles and heights. Then put it in the hanger and went and fed the cattle, right on sunset..... Sweeeeet.

 

 

[ZULU1]

Trike Flying

 

Bushpilot, you have basically "stated a hole in one mate" thats exactly why we fly them and as I am learning more about trikes (close to a 1,000hrs trikes) then the more I am enjoying the minamilistic. There are the cross country jobs and the guys who wish to spend alone soaring..When I have bought my Ducati Monster, I am really honestly considering a Doodle Bug, a jet powered hang glider..got to be fun. Then I will buy a DTA..

 

As for Ians conversion to real flying, I did my insructors rating a while back and hated three axis pilots with high hours. Natural is to push the stick the wrong way. The best students I have seen are windsurfers as its very similar in handling.

 

Safe soaring

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest MundooTriker]

Hello Ian,

 

I have a Airborne Redback. If the speed (or lack of) is ignored it is quite a cost effective way to start triking. You already have a very capable cross country machine in the CT.

 

I normally fly with a passenger, do lots of touch and go practice and it performs reasonably well. The very short circuit ablilty lets me blend in / follow the GA students practicing circuits. The little 503 purrs away happily.

 

My only disappoint with this budget trike is that getting out of the GA circuit area is nearly a cross country excercise!!.

 

Chris Stott summed it up well and I agree that the Redback is great for going for evening/early morning fly and even though I'm now hankering for a Streak, I still think the 2nd hand Redback was a good way to start.

 

Andrew

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

You know theres another aspect to this whole debate that hasnt yet been discussed, but I percieve it to be a reality.

 

A trike instructor makes some of his income charging for instruction and the remainder "arranging" new and 2nd hand machines for those that have been sent solo.

 

It would seem to me that if the instructor a student chooses trains in an Airborne Aircraft then its highly likely that the student will also end up flying Airborne trikes especially if the instructor has any sway in the choice. I guess its no different in the 3 axis world, most end up replicating to a certain extent the aircraft they train on. Personally I dont necessarily see that as a bad thing, from an instructors POV transisitioning a student out of their training trike into somethinng the same leads to lowest risk in what is traditionally a higher risk time.

 

So, with all that being said, the choice of an instructor in triking may well then hinge on more than style and relationship, and include the type of machine that training occurs in.

 

As a potential student you certainly will need to go out of your way to try something sdifferent to what you get trained in. In fact I suspect that for any given area in Australia the machines in use will traditionally all be the same, unless an experienced triker moves into the area with something different.

 

What do you other trikers think?

 

Andy

 

 

[Admin]

You know Andy, what I can gather is that Airborne don't sell trikes to end users but only via an instructor, school or club - is that correct?