CASA --- RAAus Relationship?

[fly_tornado]

That was before Ross realised he had a good shot of being President, why rock the boat once you've been elected? Right Ross? What's more important being President or fixing those hard issues?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol..I dunno much. But if I were considering being a rep, and I read sh!t like that..Id be sticking to my day job. And in the next breath you complain theres no decent representation. Good luck wit your "RAA" when this is how you treat the people who volenteer their time to keep us flying.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

FT I know you said that tongue in cheek, but many wont take it that way........Perhaps an edit might be in order?

 

Fixing those hard issues sounds so simple and is easy to write but reality is as we saw from the registration debacle just one issue out of ........<Unknown really??> is bloody hard and takes a long time. I have high hopes for Ross, I hope he aligns to those that understand the legislation we operate under, and those that want to work within the legislation and if it proves to be impossible then change the style of incorporation to remove the impediment (again much!!! easier said than done) rather than go into shonky mode....

 

Andy

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Ross wants to make it personal.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Says the man with one of ross's posts as his handle. Grow up FT. Whats up? moved on from picking on DJ?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Ross wants to make it personal.

Ah FT....your really such an idiot, why does anyone even listen to you .....................Maj....

 

 

[coljones]

At http://www.raa.asn.au/2014/02/minutes-ra-aus-board-meeting-narromine-14th-15th-september-2013/

 

on 20th February the following notice was published.

 

Perhaps, Ross, thanks. A 5 months delay is a bit long though.

 

"Minutes RA-Aus Board Meeting (Narromine) 14th – 15th September 2013

 

February 20, 2014 | members

 

Minutes RA-Aus Board Meeting – September 14th-15th 2013 (draft)"

 

This talks about a draft Ops Manual - do you think we can get a precis of proposed changes?

 

Among other things, Michael Apps was a nominee for President

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Col, I have never had any aspirations to be anything other than a board member, and certainly not the President, either now or in the future. ( another FT dribble ! ). Quite happy where I am, thank you .....I personally feel the current president is doing a fine job of leading the team...........Maj....

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Further Col, the board has access to the draft of the new ops manual, but it can 't be shared on this forum. Even though it has been presented to CASA, there is ongoing discussion on its content amoungst board members on the members behalf, and in fact changes were still being made only last week to some of its content............Maj.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

How do you know they exist? I would have thought that would be illegal and fairly easy to prove. I have never had a rep refuse to answer a question so far.

Because a board member admitted to signing one recently.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I just got off the phone to an area rep the confidentiality agreement does exist and is used for sensitive issues which if made public could be detrimental to the well being of RAAus. I have regularly spoken to reps and this agreement has not been an issue or caused me concern. This has all been since the aircraft registration shambles when the confidentiality agreement may have been used to cover up serious management short comings. The board has changed a lot since those days, and it has been for the better.

How do you know it is for the better if the secrecy still exists; it was a major concern for many members, many of who suffered major financial losses, and some of whom no longer belong to the Association.

 

You really need to do your homework before sprouting information which could be very misleading to innocent members.

 

 

[coljones]

Col, I have never had any aspirations to be anything other than a board member, and certainly not the President, either now or in the future. ( another FT dribble ! ). Quite happy where I am, thank you .....I personally feel the current president is doing a fine job of leading the team...........Maj....

Ross, I was thanking you (perhaps) for reaching, on the members behalf, into the dark recesses of RAA and hauling out the minutes. I wasn't implying that you were the one holding them back.

Since you weren't on the board at the AGM any suggestion that you would have been a candidate for President would have been presumptuous.

 

If you don't deserve credit for the release of the minutes - so be it, but let me thank you any way.

 

 

[coljones]

Further Col, the board has access to the draft of the new ops manual, but it can 't be shared on this forum. Even though it has been presented to CASA, there is ongoing discussion on its content amoungst board members on the members behalf, and in fact changes were still being made only last week to some of its content............Maj.....

Well, um, wacho. This all sounds like the board has something to hide - or the other alternative.

 

 

[Aerochute Kev]

I just got off the phone to an area rep the confidentiality agreement does exist and is used for sensitive issues which if made public could be detrimental to the well being of RAAus. I have regularly spoken to reps and this agreement has not been an issue or caused me concern. This has all been since the aircraft registration shambles when the confidentiality agreement may have been used to cover up serious management short comings. The board has changed a lot since those days, and it has been for the better.

Glad you have had it confirmed for yourself. As you have had regular contact with Reps and had no concerns with what you have been told, does it now raise concerns of what you may have NOT been told due to their signing of such an agreement?

It is very easy to be unconcerned with an answer if you believe it to be the truth, but that now raises the question of.. have things been left out of that answer because of confidentiality that would have led you to a different view of the answer? You may never know. Kind of makes it hard to believe whats being spruiked by our Reps when they are not allowed to tell what is actually happening.

 

There is no place for these agreements in the day to day running of the organisation.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Ross,

 

Does the current confidentiality undertaking represent what I have speculated in my post #98 and for the sake of eliminating any speculation on this thread would you please post a copy of the undertaking for us. The undertaking itself cannot be argued as 'confidential' it is simply a process document.

 

The last time I saw the document it was in my opinion benign and simply sought an undertaking of a representative member to 'do the right thing'. Previously the confidentiality undertaking was an onerous document and required the representative member to treat all Board meeting information as confidential, this was a real problem as it justified the allegations of secrecy from the members.

 

The undertaking was subsequently changed to basically require the representative member to respect confidentiality where it applied to genuinely confidential matters.

 

 

[Captain]

The last time I saw the document it was in my opinion benign and simply sought an undertaking of a representative member to 'do the right thing'. Previously the confidentiality undertaking was an onerous document and required the representative member to treat all Board meeting information as confidential, this was a real problem as it justified the allegations of secrecy from the members.

The undertaking was subsequently changed to basically require the representative member to respect confidentiality where it applied to genuinely confidential matters.

You are probably right David and I certainly hope so.

 

 

 

However I have a problem about a duly elected member of the Board then, after they have been declared as elected, not being given access to Board items to which he or she has a clear right and responsibility, until they sign some agreement that is presented to them after their election.

 

 

 

I suspect that it can be argued that RA-Aus has no right, at any time, to prevent an elected member's representative from gaining access to information that will allow him or her to get on with their elected job.

 

 

 

I recall only a year or 2 ago that some Board Members were locked out of access to the Board section of the RA-Aus website and the Board email system because those Board Members would not toe the line, and in an attempt by the OBC to force them to do so. Surely this "Confidentiality Agreement " signature requirement is more of the same, although almost certainly more benign.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

David, No I do not have a copy of a confidentially agreement , and even if I did I doubt I would consider posting it here.

 

As you may recall I was quite prepared to post on this forum on a regular basis as a board member, where and when I felt it necessary, to keep members informed.

 

I believe it is important to communicate with the membership, as a board member, and it is still high on my list of personal priorities.

 

That was until I recieved really inappropriate applies from some, on this forum, including from our ever- present resident idiot FT.

 

I was then effectively gagged on this forum by the removal of several of my posts, by one of the forum adjudicators, unnecessarily in my opinion.

 

I now understand why other board members rarely post on this forum. It has nothing to do with board confidentially, or being 'gagged'....I for one was prepared to take that risk to keep members in the loop, and to accept the circumstances if necessary.

 

No, it is because of all the unnecessary non- productive responses one receives when attempting to do so, often from people who are 1. Not even paid RAA members anyway. 2. have no understanding of how the system works, and aren 't interested in learning about it.

 

So basically it becomes easier for me to just say...'well, why bother beating myself to death....let them read about in the magazine, three months after it happened...'.. ..But hey, you must admit I did try!!............my honest apologies must go to those real forum friends of mine who were receptive to my inputs , and who were the ones I was attempting to reach in the first place..........Maj....

 

 

[Riley]

David, No I do not have a copy of a confidentially agreement , and even if I did I doubt I would consider posting it here.As you may recall I was quite prepared to post on this forum on a regular basis as a board member, where and when I felt it necessary, to keep members informed.

 

I believe it is important to communicate with the membership, as a board member, and it is still high on my list of personal priorities.

 

That was until I recieved really inappropriate applies from some, on this forum, including from our ever- present resident idiot FT.

 

I was then effectively gagged on this forum by the removal of several of my posts, by one of the forum adjudicators, unnecessarily in my opinion.

 

I now understand why other board members rarely post on this forum. It has nothing to do with board confidentially, or being 'gagged'....I for one was prepared to take that risk to keep members in the loop, and to accept the circumstances if necessary.

 

No, it is because of all the unnecessary non- productive responses one receives when attempting to do so, often from people who are 1. Not even paid RAA members anyway. 2. have no understanding of how the system works, and aren 't interested in learning about it.

 

So basically it becomes easier for me to just say...'well, why bother beating myself to death....let them read about in the magazine, three months after it happened...'.. ..But hey, you must admit I did try!!............my honest apologies must go to those real forum friends of mine who were receptive to my inputs , and who were the ones I was attempting to reach in the first place..........Maj....

What a sad response to what should have been an unecessary question. Maj, I applaud your grit in sticking with these unwholesome matters despite the shite being chucked about by the stirrers. I read in your terse and measured replies, the determination to see it thru and for that we of the great unwashed are truely thankful. With the strengthening of Board quality over the past year, it is not only your friends that can see there IS a light at the end of the tunnel. Hang in there. Riley

 

 

[Teckair]

No, it is because of all the unnecessary non- productive responses one receives when attempting to do so, often from people who are 1. Not even paid RAA members anyway. 2. have no understanding of how the system works, and aren 't interested in learning about it.

Yep the famous five.

 

 

[Teckair]

Glad you have had it confirmed for yourself. As you have had regular contact with Reps and had no concerns with what you have been told, does it now raise concerns of what you may have NOT been told due to their signing of such an agreement?It is very easy to be unconcerned with an answer if you believe it to be the truth, but that now raises the question of.. have things been left out of that answer because of confidentiality that would have led you to a different view of the answer? You may never know. Kind of makes it hard to believe whats being spruiked by our Reps when they are not allowed to tell what is actually happening.

 

There is no place for these agreements in the day to day running of the organisation.

In most dealings I think I can tell sooner or later if I am being lied to. If you are right and I am wrong then I believe I will find out and I will let you know.

 

 

[Teckair]

many of who suffered major financial losses

Yes and that's what it took to get their attention, if the members had of been less apathetic and done something about the OBC earlier on, then things may have been different. Now things are changing and the negativity displayed by you and some others is counter productive.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Maj,

 

I admire and appreciate your effort that you are putting in by representing the members of the RAA, Rome was not built in a day and fine wine takes time, yes it has been a cluster in the past how things have been run but hopefully we can only improve and move forward with the efforts of people like yourself now on the board.

 

More members will appreciate the effort that you guys and girls are doing for us members, you will always have knockers as you cannot and will never please everybody and everyone is entitled to an opinion and some opinions depending on how you read them are not worth wasting energy on.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Alf

 

 

[Aerochute Kev]

In most dealings I think I can tell sooner or later if I am being lied to. If you are right and I am wrong then I believe I will find out and I will let you know.

I have not at any time suggested any of the Reps have lied. For them to do so would very silly indeed. What I am suggesting is that it is possible for us as members to base our opinions and views on information that has been supplied as deliberately incomplete. Not lied to but possibly led to a conclusion we may not otherwise have made by incomplete information. Contrary to some who believe otherwise, i have no axe to grind about Maj's performance and actually support the work he is TRYING to do on our behalf (or that of any other Rep). I am merely stating I have grave misgivings about the processes that are in place that seem to hinder their being effective in their roles as representatives of the membership.

 

 

[Teckair]

I have not at any time suggested any of the Reps have lied. For them to do so would very silly indeed. What I am suggesting is that it is possible for us as members to base our opinions and views on information that has been supplied as deliberately incomplete. Not lied to but possibly led to a conclusion we may not otherwise have made by incomplete information. Contrary to some who believe otherwise, i have no axe to grind about Maj's performance and actually support the work he is TRYING to do on our behalf (or that of any other Rep). I am merely stating I have grave misgivings about the processes that are in place that seem to hinder their being effective in their roles as representatives of the membership.

For me telling half truths and knowingly misleading somebody is the same as lying. If a question cannot be answered truthfully because of some agreement I expect to be told that is the case and at this stage I believe that would be the way it would happen, if I am wrong about this I will be more p!ssed than you realise.

 

I now understand why other board members rarely post on this forum. It has nothing to do with board confidentially, or being 'gagged'

Don't you believe what Ross has said there?

 

 

[Aerochute Kev]

For me telling half truths and knowingly misleading somebody is the same as lying. If a question cannot be answered truthfully because of some agreement I expect to be told that is the case and at this stage I believe that would be the way it would happen, if I am wrong about this I will be more p!ssed than you realise.Don't you believe what Ross has said there?

It is not even about half truths or deliberately misleading, it is about the possibility of being told honest and truthful information, just not all of it.

As an example (fictitious)..... If i was looking to purchase an aircraft Brand xxx but heard on he grapevine that brand xxx had such bad safety problems that RAAus had grounded the fleet. I contact my Rep and ask if this is true that all Brand xxx aircraft have been grounded? My Rep tells me that the Board has in fact discussed this aircraft type and they have not been grounded. (this is true but only the information he is allowed to repeat) What he is not allowed to repeat at this time is that the RAAus has contacted the manufacturer of Brand xxx and demanded they show what actions they have done to remedy the situation or the fleet will be grounded.

 

I had been told 100% the truth, the RAAus had not grounded the fleet, but because I didn't know of the other actions taken, the second hand Brand xxx i just bought was grounded 3 months later and will likely never fly again. The Rep could not tell me the information that could have saved all that heartache because he had signed a confidentiality agreement and could have been disciplined if he had revealed the actions the Board had taken at that time.

 

Yes, its only a fictitious story but highlights you can be told the truth, but not everything you needed to know. The Rep answered honestly, I may have asked the wrong question (but he couldn't tell me that) and the only thing that stopped him volunteering more information was the confidentiality agreement.

 

I have no reason to disbelieve that Maj knows why other Board Members don't post on this forum.