Solar power

[Russ]

Ok....ok, it's not aviation related.........but

 

Getting quotes to install 3kw of panels on my roof, every single company throws in the "scare" line........sir be careful which company / product you choose, there is rubbish out there. Then......in the same breath, there's is one of the good ones.

 

So.......who here can relate good or bad, do it,don't do it, reports......whatever. Googling chasing info just increases confusion, often folks are saying 5 plus yrs after installation is when your possible problems will begin to emerge, and a lot of "new" companies are jumping on the band wagon to make a quick quid (roof bat installations being an example )

 

Ok........give me the good oil.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Grid connected or off-grid (I assume probably grid-connected if it's only 3kW)? We had an 8kW (panels and solar inverter) off-grid system installed with a large battery bank and 3 x 5 kW battery inverters to power our 40 acre block, including machinery shed/workshop, horse stables, and soon-to-be-built house. Superior Solar based in Newcastle and Gosford. Very informative, and they were quite open about using the best possible gear for the budget we allocated and the various differences. As it turns out, we went "BMW 5 Series" for everything, as it's our only electricity supply and we want it to last and be super-reliable. So we have good quality panels (pretty much all panels are made in Asia now), German manufactured inverters (SMA brand), and German manufactured batteries (Sonnenschein).

 

So far the only fault it had was due to a dodgy ethernet cable not long after installation. This meant that the inverters stopped talking to each other correctly, but was a simple fix at no cost to us. Since then it has run flawlessly for 2 years, and everyone we know wants to come to our place during the footy final season if the weather is forecast to be stormy (as our block will be the only one with uninterruptible power).

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I used Total Solar for my house at Burpengary and also up at my farm. As solar companies go they were ok to deal with and did a good job with their installers these are grid connect systems and were a good price when I got them put in. I am looking seriously though at going off grid in the future and just using solar with batteries the same as Dutchroll above. Qld govt are changing the "fixed" rules so the 300 I save at my house per quarter will go with the access fee they will charge and the 600 plus cheque I get from Ergon each year from the farm will only be 300 after the access fee....both sites are on the 44 cent rebate. I use solar at our radio sites and the biggest problem is getting reliable batteries they all quote big years out of them but in reality they rarely make it and are expensive.

 

I am looking out for the old style batteries we used to power all the electricity substations with when I worked for SEQEB another lifetime ago (Energex now). They were bullet proof and lasted 20 to 30 years they were huge wet cells 2volts each in square glass containers with V plates at the top they were lead acid and just never failed.....they required maintenance but were truly fantastic. The other advise is work out your total load of the house and anything else you can think of and make sure your inverters are at least 30% bigger than the most load you can hit them with. Overhead in the inverter is important I have seen a lot die. The ones at the radio sites we now use 50% bigger than the load required and do not have any failures any more

 

 

[bones]

good luck with that, no matter which one you decide on there is another "latest techno" panels or inverter out the next week.

 

We put a 4 kw system on the roof about 2 years ago, went from(back then, damn hate to think what it would be now) anything up to $5-600 a quarter, to getting a $2-300 refund each quarter, it not the refund i care about but the not having the bill is the main thing, but the up front big $$$$ was a hard swallow.

 

 

[facthunter]

The cost of this stuff appears to be going down all the time. When you go to a storage battery system it is a big leap in cost, but if you have to run a long way from the grid access with your own wires, soon becomes competitive. If you just want to cut the amount of electricity the first thing appears to be the hot water you use. The latest thing is a heat pump. (Like an airconditioner) to heat the water. Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

We got a 1.2kW system when Kevin Rudd was giving them away, still going well. Cuts down the bills but would need 4 or 5 times that to pay nothing - will add to it at some stage. Still, it's good to read the little readout that says the thing has generated 4,500 kilowatt hours total that we haven't had to pay for. Also have the Hills solar hot water (30-vacuum tube one), during summer we can leave the hot water switch off in the fusebox for weeks on end.

 

Don't know about the PV brand names, ours was installed by Nu Energy (think the inverter is SMA), haven't had a single hiccup so far.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

actually you cant add to it if you only got a 1.2kw inverter that is what your contract is for if you install a bigger unit they will make you sign a new contract for 8 cents not 44 or 55 depending on who you were with

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

oh your in Tassie...maybe different down there than in the rippoff Qld

 

 

[Marty_d]

actually you cant add to it if you only got a 1.2kw inverter that is what your contract is for if you install a bigger unit they will make you sign a new contract for 8 cents not 44 or 55 depending on who you were with

I'd love to get 44 or 55 cents, there's no special rate here for electricity sent back to the grid. You get the same rate they charge you (27/28 cents or whatever it is).

 

As far as the inverter goes, someone told me recently that solar panels are coming out with their own mini-inverter on each panel, so you can throw as many as you like on your roof. Not sure if that's happening yet.

 

 

[facthunter]

That would help with partial shade. The 28 cents rate is adjusted for the increase of price. If you are on the higher rates that doesn't happen. also you will lose the off peak rates. If you have two phases you can have 2 x 5 kw/hr at 8 cents feed in in VIC. You don't get much money at that rate. they pay the power stations less though. Peak rates might get higher. Nev

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I'd love to get 44 or 55 cents, there's no special rate here for electricity sent back to the grid. You get the same rate they charge you (27/28 cents or whatever it is).As far as the inverter goes, someone told me recently that solar panels are coming out with their own mini-inverter on each panel, so you can throw as many as you like on your roof. Not sure if that's happening yet.

I doubt they would have grid connect inverters on the panels as you would need some sort of synchronising control within the system. This is why they do it on DC just series up the panels and end up with 1 high voltage then another string of panels goes to another input of the inverter then the system sharing is done here and only 1 AC generation is done, its much easier...to try to sync panels would be a nightmare

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't know how it works or even if it's right, this was a comment in conversation with an electrician so it may have just been rumour. We'll probably just end up getting a bigger inverter and more panels.

 

 

[kgwilson]

The big subsidies for installing solar systems are all but gone and there are no government guaranteed feed in tariffs in NSW. Most electricity retailers only give you around 6 cents per kwh you feed back into the grid & charge you 38cents per kWh when you buy from them. The old 60 cents for every kWh you produced & the retailer paying you every time the meter was read nearly sent the NSW labour government broke but then they never made a single good decision in many years.

 

Check out the cleanenergycouncil.org.au website & download the consumer guide. It is a very good detailed 30 page guide to the selection & installation of solar systems, the costs and types, what STCs (small scale certificates) are available etc.

 

There are now more than 1000 brands of photovoltaic panels available, though many are re-branded from the same factory & almost all come from China now. There is also the choice between Mono Crystalline and Poly Crystalline panels. Some retailers will tell you Poly are better but they aren't. The other technology (Thin Film) are generally larger than the other 2 for any given output.

 

Most of the system retailers will put the panels on the easiest section of the roof to get at rather than the best orientation for maximising the suns energy. I installed a 2 kW system almost a year ago & made sure it was on the best northerly facing part of the roof not where the retailers wanted to put it. The quotes I got for a 2kw system varied from $2,800.00 to $7,600.00.

 

I chose a system that cost $4,200.00 after the STC credits. There are still some ripoff merchants in the industry. Make sure they are accredited by the Clean Energy Council. They all wildly exaggerate the payback timeframe. I have been keeping weekly records since installation & my ROI is sitting at around 14% not including replacement cost which may be an inverter after 10 years and panels after 25 years. (This is when the warranties expire) Still it's better than money in the bank at 4%.

 

Remember that with a grid connected system you have to use the energy when the sun shines to get a real benefit so that often means changing your electricity use patterns to during the day rather than at night.

 

 

[dutchroll]

The cost of this stuff appears to be going down all the time. When you go to a storage battery system it is a big leap in cost, but if you have to run a long way from the grid access with your own wires, soon becomes competitive. If you just want to cut the amount of electricity the first thing appears to be the hot water you use. The latest thing is a heat pump. (Like an airconditioner) to heat the water. Nev

Yeah we live a bit over 1/2 km from the grid and the quotes to connect to the grid were well in excess of $50k by the time it got across a major road then underground for 600m with turrets, turning a few corners, trenching etc. Our entire off-grid system with good battery storage cost $60k after rebates. No power bills, ever. And using high quality long-lasting components.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Up here i9n qld we get 44 cents so better to use the electricity at night we pay 24 per kwh I think now but pay us 44 when we generate

 

 

[kgwilson]

Up here i9n qld we get 44 cents so better to use the electricity at night we pay 24 per kwh I think now but pay us 44 when we generate

Yes but it is still a "Net" system where you only get paid for the difference not a "Gross" system as it used to be in NSW where you got paid for every kWh produced regardless of whether you used it yourself or exported it into the grid.

The other thing is that this scheme ends on 1 July this year so you only have another 4 months of government subsidy left.

 

 

[Russ]

Read recently that some expert was saying that computers will shortly replace paper, I bet those experts have never tried wiping their arses with a laptop.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Finally. A thread on my favourite topic. After almost four decades dabbling in and teaching about solar design, people are finally starting to take some interest. It's great to see, but we can do so much more.

 

So many right-wingers dismissed renewables and actively worked against incentives. Despite their opposition, a significant and growing share of Australia's power now comes from renewables.

 

We can thank Labor governments for tossing in a bit of money to kick off the solar industry- which now employs so many, and is likely to become self-sustaining.

 

In the 70s and 80s there were lots of coffee table books on solar design and how to live more sustainably.

 

A few of us built passive solar homes and have enjoyed the benefits, but the building industry doesn't seem to know or care about the possibilities (yes, I know governments mandate energy-saving designs in new construction, but the guidelines are weak and unimaginative.) Just look at the poorly-designed homes most people mortgage their life to buy. Houses with dark-coloured walls and roof, plonked down on the block with no effort to make use of winter sun for warming, or to keep out the summer sun. Try asking the neatly-presented sales people at display villages if they have any solar designs and you'll get blank looks.

 

It amazes me that people seem happy to pay four times as much for power as they need to.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Finally. A thread on my favourite topic. After almost four decades dabbling in and teaching about solar design, people are finally starting to take some interest. It's great to see, but we can do so much more.So many right-wingers dismissed renewables and actively worked against incentives. Despite their opposition, a significant and growing share of Australia's power now comes from renewables.

 

We can thank Labor governments for tossing in a bit of money to kick off the solar industry- which now employs so many, and is likely to become self-sustaining.

 

In the 70s and 80s there were lots of coffee table books on solar design and how to live more sustainably.

 

A few of us built passive solar homes and have enjoyed the benefits, but the building industry doesn't seem to know or care about the possibilities (yes, I know governments mandate energy-saving designs in new construction, but the guidelines are weak and unimaginative.) Just look at the poorly-designed homes most people mortgage their life to buy. Houses with dark-coloured walls and roof, plonked down on the block with no effort to make use of winter sun for warming, or to keep out the summer sun. Try asking the neatly-presented sales people at display villages if they have any solar designs and you'll get blank looks.

 

It amazes me that people seem happy to pay four times as much for power as they need to.

I think the culture is changing from "do the minimum required by AS1684 ". I did a Cert 4 in Residential Drafting a few years ago (never used it since!) and site position, room placement, sun track, eave width, tree placement, glazing performance, insulation, etc etc were emphasised in order to maximise passive solar advantage. Now we have building companies doing homes with 5 or 6 green star ratings. Of course you'll still get dickheads building their homes with south-facing living areas because they think the lounge room should always face the road, but I think the trend is towards good design.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

It's encouraging to hear that Marty, but the housing developments I see fill me with dispair.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Read recently that some expert was saying that computers will shortly replace paper, I bet those experts have never tried wiping their arses with a laptop.

I remember that being said in the 1970s. "The paperless office is just around the corner". Well around the corner was just another corner & it keeps on keeping on.

 

 

[storchy neil]

We can thank Labor governments for tossing in a bit of money to kick off the solar industry- which now employs so many, and is likely to become self-sustaining.

 

had solar on mobile home 2001 when dipstick dudd gave me 9000 dollars and paid me 65 cent per kw into grid I grabbed it how bloody stupid was dudd when I was paying 16 cents per kw have not paid for elect for five years

 

last bill I paid was 375 dollars for three months

 

have 5 kw set up neil

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

We can thank Labor governments for tossing in a bit of money to kick off the solar industry- which now employs so many, and is likely to become self-sustaining.had solar on mobile home 2001 when dipstick dudd gave me 9000 dollars and paid me 65 cent per kw into grid I grabbed it how bloody stupid was dudd when I was paying 16 cents per kw have not paid for elect for five years

last bill I paid was 375 dollars for three months

 

have 5 kw set up neil

Neil I'm sure the same has been said by big business about past government assistance to industry. Was it any different when traditional coal-burning power companies were set up? Governments create incentives for people to invest; today we invest in solar, for which our children will be thankful.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I have been using solar power for radio sites for over 20 years only small loads in comparison of course to what we use today but the technology has come leaps and bounds. Placement with solar is also a huge design concern as well. Panel technology has grown dramatically and so has the regulator/inverter technology. Solar pricing has also dropped dramatically too in comparison for dollar per watt as well. Going off grid is now a viable option due to the much lower costs. House design can save also 50% plus on usage for heating and cooling of the home so a lot to consider now especially if you are doing a new house. The big thing concerning off grid is the battery technology and that has come a long way as well but really for longterm storage and use it has not had the same advancements. Short term capacity and supply has boomed in the tech but the long term is still developing and this is oe of the major recurring costs to consider. The rate we are being charged for generated power is scandalous and you will see a lot more people seriously considering going down this track. One by product is also you them must conserve what you use to get full efficiency out of your system so you can have a reasonable amount of overhead for those times when there is 1 or 2 weeks of rain. Of course a backup diesel generator really is required on a off grid system but they are so cheap now it is not funny. You can buy a diesel inverter tech 7 or 10 kw generator for under 3 to 5 thousand dollars and it is easily setup to autostart now as well when your limits are reached.

 

I am looking seriously now for some decent batteries to start looking at doing this especially if the govt here in Qld want to stuff around with the inflow pricing. My bill per quarter here with my solar is still around 5 to 600 per quarter so if they take my inflow back then for 800 to 900 a quarter it is starting to become viable to tell them to get stuffed and go off grid. I have started collecting a few panels now a mate found a guy who replaces solar panels that are damaged on roofs after storms the insurance company pays him to remove complete systems not just individual panels as the newer designs are different sizes so we have been buying these panels in lots of 10 at a time for $85 per panel. Each group is the same type so you could have 2 or 3 groups of 10 panels so long as they are same wattage and type its a no brainer. The lot I just got last week are 180watt panels which in qld is good you don't want the 250 watt panels as it gets too hot up here and the panel efficiency goes down after 25deg C so a smaller panel does not absorb a lot of heat. Down south the bigger panels are not a issue but up here where the temps are much hotter you get more out of a smaller panel.

 

By the way these SH panels are usually only a year or less in age and perfect no damage at all so if you are looking for panels try to chase one of these guys up..this last lot I just got was from a batch of 400 panels he had for sale

 

This has been a interesting thread and I hope people keep this going with ideas etc

 

Mark

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Tindo Solar at Mawson Lakes (Adelaide northern suburb) use a $4 million robotic assembly line to manufacture both AC and DC panels. Each AC panel has its own mini-inverter to output 230V AC. They welcome visitors and I believe their website has a video of this assembly line in operation. They claim to be Australia's only PV panel maker.