500000 jobs gone ... Media useless

[Galpin]

I am ashamed at what has been written here by fellow aviators. The language, diatribe and bile that has issued forth is an absolute disgrace. What sought of people are you? What are your standards? Please, take a long hard look at yourselves. You may point the finger abusively at someone, but at the same time you are pointing-out your standards with three fingers pointing back at you.

 

Goodbye.

 

 

[M61A1]

Here we go again, union membership is at an all-time low in this country but somehow they're still responsible for all the woes. I really don't understand this insistence that everything should be left to market forces and this will somehow result in flourishing industry. You want to follow the Gina Rinehart model, strip away all limitations on wage and conditions, and make your companies profitable by paying $2 an hour? Yes, your company will be competitive on the world stage. Yes, it may even make massive profits and provide employment. But who benefits? The people working for the company? No, they're still screwed. The only people who benefit are the investors and the management team. Then you have the gap between rich and poor widening.This may be your idea of paradise, fair enough, go start a company in Bangladesh and enjoy your profits.

Union membership in this country may be low, but Qantas is quite unionised, I don't think it's coincidental that they are having problems. I am not sure of what really goes on, but, having worked with more than a handful of people who have at one time or another been employed by Quantas, I can tell you that to a man they are the most unproductive people I have ever had the misfortune to work with, and if the rest of their workforce is similar, they will never manage to be competitive. I am not surprised they are having issues.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I am ashamed at what has been written here by fellow aviators. The language, diatribe and bile that has issued forth is an absolute disgrace. What sought of people are you? What are your standards? Please, take a long hard look at yourselves. You may point the finger abusively at someone, but at the same time you are pointing-out your standards with three fingers pointing back at you.Goodbye.

Sorry Galpin, but, having read through the entire thread,. . . I fail to see your point, ? Vile Diatribes ??? Absolute disgrace ? ? ? I have found this thread very educational, being based in the UK, I don't have any information about Qantas, but I've certainly learned a lot more this evening from my "FELLOW AVIATORS" . . . . . I agree that there are some well heated comments in the preceding posts, but a Disgrace ? do you seriously believe that some of the revealing information in the thread is that bad. . . .?

 

If so, then perhaps you belong to some religious organisation which bans dissent of any kind ? . . . . well,. . .if you are of that mind, then I have to say that I will lay my life on the line for your freedom to espouse your thoughts in public print,. . . .but I don't have to agree with you.

 

If you are disgusted by strenuous argument / differences of opinion, then perhaps you should not bother to read it., this puts me in mind of a story from the late great Tommy Cooper, who once said to his physician. . . "Doctor, when I do this it hurts." the doctor replies,. . ." well,. . .Don't do it".

 

Kind regards, and NO OFFENCE intended.

 

Phil

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

I am ashamed at what has been written here by fellow aviators. The language, diatribe and bile that has issued forth is an absolute disgrace. What sought of people are you? What are your standards? Please, take a long hard look at yourselves. You may point the finger abusively at someone, but at the same time you are pointing-out your standards with three fingers pointing back at you.Goodbye.

I would observe that the vast majority of commentators here, are pointing their fingers at what they see as failures of the principle of a "fair go" - the issue that, if it is impossible to separate a "management salary plus incentive vs real value contributed by management" package, from greed, then there is something wrong with the package. Similarly, if the operations of an organisation with the function of pursuing the mutual benefit of all those involved in a business (i.e. a union) manifest no benefits but to the executive of said organisation, there is something wrong with the running of the organisation.

The whole concept of a "fair go" implicitly considers society as a whole; these days, a significant proportion of Management executives appear to be professionally short-sighted to (a) the length of their contract, and (b) the performance indicators by which their renumeration is affected. Call it professional training in abandoning perspective. Our politicians seem to have it, too... the result is that the executives of an organisation are, unconsciously, making that organisation into a parasite upon society as a whole, rather than a symbiote.

 

Unions are required, by definition, to be partisan to their membership; but that does not mean that they cannot recognise the interests of the rest of the industry in which their members work, or indeed society as a whole.

 

Send not, therefore, to ask for whom the bell tolls.

 

 

[M61A1]

Unions are required, by definition, to be partisan to their membership; but that does not mean that they cannot recognise the interests of the rest of the industry in which their members work, or indeed society as a whole.

In my limited experience with unions, the certainly could recognise the interests of the industry and society, but rarely do. For the most part, what I have witnessed is a mentality of "they (the company) have deep pockets, take as much as you can", with no regard to sustainability or productivity.

 

 

[Oscar]

A very worthwhile article to read: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/business/aviation/mayday-how-qantas-went-from-national-icon-to-corporate-tragedy-20140228-33rax.html

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

In my limited experience with unions, the certainly could recognise the interests of the industry and society, but rarely do. For the most part, what I have witnessed is a mentality of "they (the company) have deep pockets, take as much as you can", with no regard to sustainability or productivity.

Antiquated ideas of economics - the notion that "Capital" owns the means of production, and "Labour" operates the machines, should have died by WW2. But Keynsian economics is geriatric too... civilisations collapse due to poor economics. Perhaps more history should be taught in school?

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Not falling out of the skies in any great numbers are they.

That either means, a lot of people are doing their jobs properly, despite the lousy management - or it indicates that there is a LOT of redundancy built into modern aircraft - or a bit of both; and the 747 was a quantum jump in that, tho the 727 was better than most people realise. Qantas has, observably, a very good set of pilots; right up there with Sully Sullenberg, in my books. But the overall level of competition in the airline industry can only put pressure on safety standards - and candidly, I do not have any confidence in "professional managers" who have not grown up in the full "safety culture", but are more commercially orientated. They are necessary, I suppose, given the level of competition, but this does not fill me with confidence; the second most nervous airline passengers are pilots; but engineers come first in that race.

 

I used to be in charge of an old F-27 that CSIRO used as a flying laboratory for atmospheric research and remote sensing. It was maintained by East-West airlines, who at that time ran eleven of the things, and knew them backwards. It went into the field for three months at a time (whereas one in airline use got a check 1 every night and a check 3 about once a fortnight); and it was utterly reliable. I know in detail how that was achieved; it takes real expertise plus intimate knowledge of each individual aircraft, and you cannot purchase that by tender; you have to build it over time, and it has incalculable value.

 

Qantas maintenance used to be second to none. What it is now, I don't know. But I have reservations about their management's understanding of that value.

 

The RR Dart engines in the F27 were not as fuel-efficient as modern engines - but they had decent thermal margins; they'd start safely down to 24 volts on the aircraft's batteries - so you didn't need a battery cart, which meant it could operate for extended periods away from a major base. The push for better fuel economy has pushed turbine inlet temperatures up to the point where the engines are operating on a knife edge; a turbine reduced to metal spray by a hot start of the F 50 engines is an awesom sight - and so is the cost of it. The push for reduced structure weight means the airframes are made of unobtanium, and are working at high stress levels. Fly-by-wire is necessary so the things can fly at CG limits that are uncomfortably far aft - as a pilot friend of mine said, "Fly-by-wire is OK so long as the wire is 7 x 19". It's called "progress" but in my lexicon, it's "shaving the margins to the bone".

 

Now excuse me, please - it's time for an oil change in my Subie.

 

 

[Oscar]

Airline Management 101: compare and contrast: http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/virgin-ceo-john-borghetti-talks-to-abc-journalist-elysse-morgan.114179/ with any recent interview with Alan Joyce.

 

 

[Oscar]

Qantas maintenance used to be second to none. What it is now, I don't know. But I have reservations about their management's understanding of that value.

The conventional wisdom is that an Auditor knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Alan Joyce is an Auditor personified, with the added kudos of ( I suspect) a degree from the Irish Management Institute. Yes, such a body (or one of a similar title) exists. Ireland went, as some will remember, from being the investment darling of the OECD to bankrupt WAY before Greece, Spain etc.

 

For those vilifying Australian union activity in regard to Qantas, I offer you a challenge: be about to step on to a Qantas flight overseas. Be handed a copy of the current maintenance release for your aircraft from 'The Happy Sunrise Aircraft Maintenance Facility' vs sighting one for the next flight out from a Qantas Australian maintenance base. Be offered the opportunity to defer to the next flight for a surcharge of $10.

 

Vote with your bottom on the seat.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Oscar do you forget the days when every busy holiday period the Qantas staff held the nation and the airline to ransom with strikes. If Joyce hadnt of grounded the fleet they would still happen today... These staff and the unions have a lot to do with why Qantas is a basket case.

 

Unions have done a lot for us, but Advocarial unions cause job losses. Its just they arent normally this obvious so people can pretend they dont. They take wage rise after wage rise and eventually something has to give. Well this is the day it gives... And it wont be the last of Qantas job losses as they are leaner, but the wages havent changed.

 

So unless Qantas gets some cash to buy time while frozen wages take years to help, then expect more and more problems for qantas. They have. A broken cost model on the int routes and capital city routes, and Joyce has done what he can, now its going to take the staff to do their part and massively lift productivity or work cheaper (less overtime , less penalty work, more effective and efficient) if they dont , then expect qantas to shrink tot he stage where it only competes on regional domestic flights.

 

Qantas cannot compete on int routes where staff are paid half, where maint costs half, and where many are backed by foreign govts. Its over for them if the govt doesnt step in, or the staff dont restructure their conditions and fast.

 

 

[Oscar]

I presume you mean 'adversarial'? Yes, it used to happen. Which side last pulled the rug from its customers, leaving them stranded, world-wide?

 

I said earlier - carve off Qantas international, let it go into the world market with Alan Joyce as its CEO; keep a domestic service that is at least 51% owned nationally with a government guarantee of debt in return for a guaranteed minimum level of service to the Australian community, with a competent CEO and Board.

 

 

[DrZoos]

We had a similar discussion a while ago and you called it a rant. But since then our last car manufacturer has gone, telstra cut, qantas, virgin loss , Forge group 1200, and its going to continue till we address our ridiculous wages. There are going to be 8000 miners whos contracts finish this year in QLD alone with no renewals. And that is echoing accross the mining sector nationwide as the investment in new projects has virtually ceased. Lots still to be finished, but no new ones being signed. With the exception of the gas industry. And Qantas relies on these massively to fill their front seats ( the ones that pay).

 

 

[cscotthendry]

We had a similar discussion a while ago and you called it a rant. But since then our last car manufacturer has gone, telstra cut, qantas, virgin loss , Forge group 1200, and its going to continue till we address our ridiculous wages. There are going to be 8000 miners whos contracts finish this year in QLD alone with no renewals. And that is echoing accross the mining sector nationwide as the investment in new projects has virtually ceased. Lots still to be finished, but no new ones being signed. With the exception of the gas industry. And Qantas relies on these massively to fill their front seats ( the ones that pay).

So, bottom line here, what do you think Aust wages should be? $2.00 a day like La Rinehart would like, or maybe what Bangladeshi factory workers get? You don't seem to understand the cost of living in Oz has a big bearing on what people need to survive.

Should it just be the wage earners who take less? What about the investors, or management? If you take out the bloated packages of the upper tiers and then take an average of the salaries, the we've got a sensible discussion. When was the last time anyone compared the pay of CEOs in Oz to CEOs in the third world? We never get to see any of those figures.

 

 

[DrZoos]

No body is suggesting $2, but twice our US buddies and 1.8 times the UK is completely unsustainable... Then we have much higher taxes and overheads as well.... We need to start with a nation wide freeze. Then adjust some sectors downwards slowly over time. It wont happen, but its whats needed.

 

Our minimum wage is the major problem, because many people simply cannot ad that much worth to the economy.... You cant have the majority of wage earners on minimum wage getting paid multiples of other advanced economises and stay competitive.. If our toilets and garbage and lunch and basic untrained people get paid twice as much how can we ever compete.

 

The problem is unless our most productive people and businesses are about sixteen times more productive then we have to lose jobs at a very high rate and we are now seeing that every week. Plus for every news announcement of a big employer culling many many casual workers have lost hours and part timers been put off.

 

I mix with small and medium business and believe me every single person i know is complaining of the exact same thing.... They just cant justify the expense of their employees. Let alone put on more...

 

It starts in manufacturing, it will flow through to retail and services and then property... Start saving, because unless you make your business a lot more then you cost them, you might be next.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

You cant have the majority of wage earners on minimum wage getting paid multiples of other advanced economises and stay competitive...

There it is again "competitive" compete with who? What's the bottom line? Who should the workers in this country compete with? Whoever has the lowest wages for that job in the world? When does the race to the bottom stop?

And yes, someone IS suggesting $2.00 a day, Gina Rinehart, and I don't think she was kidding.

 

 

[Yenn]

"CEO salaries are based on a reasonable and often quite low percentage of what savings or profits they are able to achieve, usully very good value . It's a system that generally works very well throughout the business world and no reason for Qantas to differ."

 

That is what the CEOs would have us believe, but as a long time share investor I can assure you that it is not true. Sol trujillo was mentioned here and just think back to what he got from Telstra, and what he did for them. he was so bad that he was given a golden handshake to get rid of him. But he is a golden boy, still stuffing things up. Wants us to go nuclear!

 

 

[winsor68]

When I worked in the Airline industry the contractor wages paid by Virgin were a good deal better than Qantas were paying...and Virgin was paying peanuts.

 

Perhaps some proof of the over the top wage claims would be nice or stfu.

 

 

[DrZoos]

There it is again "competitive" compete with who? What's the bottom line? Who should the workers in this country compete with? Whoever has the lowest wages for that job in the world? When does the race to the bottom stop?And yes, someone IS suggesting $2.00 a day, Gina Rinehart, and I don't think she was kidding.

No body sensible is suggesting it... More to the point are you convinced that you are twice as productive as your US counterpart doing the same job.... If not, then who do you suggest loses their job so that we can pay you twice as much?

 

 

[cscotthendry]

No body sensible is suggesting it... More to the point are you convinced that you are twice as productive as your US counterpart doing the same job.... If not, then who do you suggest loses their job so that we can pay you twice as much?

I pay twice as much for my house, car, electricity etc etc, are you suggesting that with my costs, I should only get paid what an American doing the same job but with a 1/3 or half the costs I have?

You still haven't addressed the levels of pay at the top of the tree or what investors expect as return percentages. What about them?

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I pay twice as much for my house, car, electricity etc etc, are you suggesting that with my costs, I should only get paid what an American doing the same job but with a 1/3 or half the costs I have?You still haven't addressed the levels of pay at the top of the tree or what investors expect as return percentages. What about them?

BTW, ther are an alarming number of people, particularly some who make decisions about such things, who are firmly convinced that Gina Rinehart IS perfectly sensible in suggesting that Aussies work or $2 a day, and a LOT of them are currently in our government.

 

 

[M61A1]

For those vilifying Australian union activity in regard to Qantas, I offer you a challenge: be about to step on to a Qantas flight overseas. Be handed a copy of the current maintenance release for your aircraft from 'The Happy Sunrise Aircraft Maintenance Facility' vs sighting one for the next flight out from a Qantas Australian maintenance base. Be offered the opportunity to defer to the next flight for a surcharge of $10.Vote with your bottom on the seat.

What do the unions have to do with the quality of maintenance? I know that generally speaking, their maintainers do a quality job, they, in my opinion, take an excessively long time to do the work they do, and ask a fortune for it. To be fair to them, my opinion is formed from working with some ex-Qantas employees, as well as listening to their stories of how business was conducted.

As for voting with my backside....I hate flying on any aircraft where I'm not allowed to do my own pre-flight.

 

 

[Oscar]

Dr Zoos, has it occurred to you that wages and prices are inextricably entwined? As wages go up, prices go up, profits remain about the same margin. As prices go up, the CPI goes up, wages follow. Good management remains profitable, bad management does not. You want to talk comparative salaries? Australian CEOs have accelerated their median salaries by way more than the international average in the last 10 or so years. Our houses are the biggest per family in the 'developed' world. Our commercial rents are off the planet.

 

I've been an employee, (27 or so years), a Director of a SME (nearly 10 years), a sole-trader Consultant (also nearly 10 years). In all my career, 'Union' activity has played almost no significant part - whether as (for a while) a member of a Union, or later as an employer. As an employer, it was simply a part of our cost structure and we handled it. We were sufficiently successful that in the end we were made an offer we couldn't refuse to join with one of the major engineering consultancy companies in the world (Worley Parsons).

 

Go look at history and what the 'union-breaking' Thatcher years did for the UK. It has no domestic auto manufacturing industry as a result, no domestic aviation manufacturing industry. Then look at the growth of the Australian economy in and post the Hawke government and the 'union accord' that he brokered.

 

Then, if you really want to understand the problems of Qantas, you need to read: 'On the Psychology of Military Incompetence', by Norman Dixon. It is a compelling discussion of the reasons for failure to effectively manage a specific situation and Alan Joyce ticks all the boxes that Dixon creates.

 

Virgin Blue operates in the same environment. Do you hear Borghetti whingeing about the unions?

 

 

[Oscar]

What do the unions have to do with the quality of maintenance? I know that generally speaking, their maintainers do a quality job, they, in my opinion, take an excessively long time to do the work they do, and ask a fortune for it. To be fair to them, my opinion is formed from working with some ex-Qantas employees, as well as listening to their stories of how business was conducted.As for voting with my backside....I hate flying on any aircraft where I'm not allowed to do my own pre-flight.

The relationship between the unions and the quality of maintenance is simply that Australian maintainers need to be able to live in the cost-structure that exists here. If someone can come up with validated figures that Australian maintainers are paid a disproportionate salary to their level of competence, I'm happy to yield the field and retire. Your car mechanic is currently costing you something like $65/hour on average- what is a Qantas maintainer being paid? Do any of us on this forum actually have quantitative figures on the average cost/hour for an Australian Qantas maintenance staff position?

 

 

[DrZoos]

There is no way i can change your conviction that you deserve enough money to pay your bills and there fore shall have..

 

Without business and the economy making money you dont have a job or a wage .......to pay your expenses... And you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that a business must be able to make money to be able to then pay staff... No profit means radical change is necesary...

 

Right now businesses are doing what they do. Making sure they answer to their owners. They are culling staff, because staff are no longer profitable.....its no secret, but to some it seems inconceivable. How can i not be profitable?

 

You can bury your head all you want until you get the tap on the shoulder.then you might believe me... But if as a nation we want to fix it before we have very high unemployment and a long protracted correction of wages and housing prices. Then the only answer is to share the pain via wage freezes and minor wage reductions...or we must become 1.8 times as productive...

 

If for example we decide we want to compete with nations that pay $14 hr minimum wage, and ours is $20 we can wait 10 years with wage freezes for them to catch up and have 10 years of rising unemployment. Or we can reduce wages by say $1 per hour per year till we are equal at say $16 and have much lower unemployment and a much less prolonged downturn...

 

Japans population chose to pretend they didnt have a problem and it took them over a decade of severe economic pain and they still havent recovered. The irony is there wages have ended up much lower then the reductions that where originally proposed, because of the length and depth of the correction. Take your pick.

 

Personally i will happily take 5% less if it means my job is secure . Then once costs come down i will take another 5% less.

 

Do the maths on wage increases and you will find in our tax system wage increases make everyone worse off once the costs move through the economy. The only winner is the ato.